Agenda Items 1, 3 of 7-21-15 CDB Hearing r
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5 AGENDA ITEMS 1 and 3 of the July 21 , 2015
6 Atlantic Beach Community Development Hearing .
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1 (Agenda Item No . 1 : )
2 FEMALE SPEAKER: All right . Good evening,
3 ladies and gentlemen . It is 6 : 05 and I would like
4 to call the July 21st meeting of the Community
5 Development Board to order .
6 Please let the record show that Harley and
7 Patrick are absent .
8 (Conclusion of Agenda Item No . 1 . )
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1 (Agenda Item No . 3 : )
2 MS . PAUL : All right . Our next agenda item
3 will be under old business , item 3-A .
4 MALE SPEAKER: So this is zoning variance 15
5 dash VZAR 1035 . Its a rehearing from our
6 previous meeting where the item was deferred .
7 I think most of you are aware of the
8 circumstances on this property . I ' ll go through
9 them again quickly .
10 So this is a request that ' s permitted by
11 Section 2464 for relief from Section 2488-B,
12 requirements for adjoining townhouse dwelling
13 units to be constructed of substantially the same
14 architectural style, colors and materials .
15 Atlantic Beach subdivision A, half of lot 6, block
16 34 , a/k/a 88 Ocean Boulevard .
17 Property is in the RGM residential general
18 multi-family zoning district, residential medium
19 future land use . So as a townhouse it is
20 allowable use . There ' s no issue there .
21 The lot is approximately 26 by 106 feet deep .
22 It ' s one-half of an existing two-unit townhome
23 structure that was originally built in 2006 .
24 We ' re talking about the lower image there,
25 the unit on the left, it ' s a three-story unit .
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1 You can see the diagram there on the right . It ' s
2 surrounded by other single-family and two-family
3 uses . Across the street is the large paved
4 parking lot for One Ocean Hotel .
5 So the proposed plan is to replace the exterior
6 siding with new horizontal lap siding with minor
7 architectural changes to balconies and columns .
8 So when we were here last time we had the
9 design on the lower left and on the right we had the
10 new design . The changes they have made here are
11 they ' ve gone back to the original doors , so that ' s
12 the same architectural style, and they ' re going to
13 paint the columns and trim to match what was there
14 before , you know, trying to keep that architectural
15 style in line with the adjacent unit, while still
16 maintaining the horizontal lap siding that they had
17 requested . The unit on the right side of this is
18 all stucco .
19 So the need for variance 2488-B states,
20 adjoining two family or townhouse dwelling units
21 shall be constructed of substantially the same
22 architectural style, colors and materials .
23 As I just said, the adjoining unit is the same
24 as it was originally constructed, featuring tan
25 stucco and beige accents .
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1 The proposed use of horizontal lap siding is
2 different than the stucco of the adjoining unit .
3 It ' s different material and architectural style .
4 The proposed changes to columns , the garage
5 door actually is now back to the original, a result
6 of minor architectural changes in that respect,
7 compared to the adjoining unit .
8 Analysis and concerns . Kelly, you weren ' t here
9 for this last time . The reason for the siding
10 change resulted from a major issue with water
11 intrusion into the structure . It involved
12 litigation with the owners and builder, ultimately
13 resulting in them needing to do extensive repairs .
14 The pictures there on the right are just
15 examples that the applicants provided to us .
16 ( Inaudible) rot and mold .
17 They did attempt to replace the stucco with
18 another contractor . That stucco application failed,
19 resulting in new water intrusion, new repairs to be
20 made .
21 The applicant hired an engineer that found the
22 stucco was installed incorrectly and recommended
23 designing a drainage plane in between the siding and
24 the actual house that would allow any water that got
25 through to pass freely down to the ground and not be
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1 pressed up against the sheeting of the house and
2 cause the damage .
3 So, from staff, as I said, the stucco was tried
4 a second time prior to this drainage plane system,
5 but the stucco was never used on this drainage
6 plane .
7 The city building official, Dan Arlington, is
8 here tonight, if you have any questions for him, has
9 stated that stucco is an accepted building material
10 and it should work whenever it ' s designed and
11 installed correctly.
12 So analysis, concerns . The main reason the
13 city has this Code provision is kind of two-fold .
14 One, obvious , aesthetics . When everything isn ' t
15 kept the same you don ' t end up -- and this is
16 probably the worst example . Locally we could use
17 the one on Neptune , Neptune Beach on 3rd Street,
18 where you have different siding materials , different
19 colors . Everything has kind of been changed over
20 time with that .
21 So that ' s kind of what we ' re trying to prevent
22 from happening. Obviously it ' s a worst case . Not
23 saying that ' s what these applicants intend to do in
24 anyway, obviously we ' ve seen the renderings .
25 They ' re still very similar .
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1 At the same time we ' re also looking at kind of
2 providing a safety net for that adjoining unit . You
3 know, they bought their unit, it had stucco, the
4 neighbor had stucco, they kind of expect the
5 continuity of that design to persist . They also
6 bought this house with that Code provision in place,
7 thinking that their neighbor would be similar .
8 So that takes us to our grounds for approval or
9 denial . I believe the applicants have identified
10 No . 3 and No . 4 on the approval side .
11 If you have any questions , happy to answer .
12 MS . PAUL : Do you have any questions for
13 staff?
14 (No response . )
15 MR. ELMORE : My understanding is there ' s a
16 little bit of gray area as far as issuing permits
17 by the city .
18 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah . Okay. I can address
19 that .
20 So as I kind of mentioned through this, the
21 homeowner was aware that there was issues with the
22 property, hired a contractor to make repairs, the
23 repairs weren ' t working, they separated ways . A
24 new contractor was hired .
25 In the meantime, the old contractor, as they
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1 should, notified the city that he was no longer on
2 that con -- on the permit, basically making the
3 permit void.
4 So when the new contractor drew up their plans
5 with this drainage plane system and all that, as I
6 understand it, the applicants brought plans in to
7 the city to have them permitted and there appeared
8 to be some confusion of the front staff as whether
9 or not they were doing the same work as the previous
10 contractor, which we already had the plans for, or
11 whether they were doing something different .
12 It seemed the staff thought that they were
13 going to be doing the same work and said that we
14 didn ' t need to re-review the plans if they ' re doing
15 the same thing .
16 That original permit called for replacing like
17 the like siding . There were actually two permits ,
18 one for the siding and one for an interior remodel .
19 At that point the new contractor did their work
20 thinking they were okay and we happened to notice
21 one day that, as the siding was going up, that it
22 was different and issued a stop-work order .
23 MALE SPEAKER: Just to clarify, that was the
24 clerical staff where that happened . It wasn ' t,
25 you know, a building official or a plan reviewer .
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1 It was just kind of a front-end clerical staff
2 that gave the okay on there, talked to ' em about
3 that .
4 MR. ELMORE : I guess my question is it seems
5 to open the door for the property owner to be
6 granted some relief in the sense that it was an
7 error by the City of Atlantic Beach . I mean get a
8 permit and go down the road and then told, wait a
9 minute , you know, you ' ve already committed dollars,
10 you ' ve ordered product . And I think that, you
11 know, this is what this board is for, is to kind of
12 ferret out , see what the fairest and best path to
13 relief is in a circumstance like this .
14 MALE SPEAKER: Just to address that, I mean
15 typically when people are doing major work on a
16 house, they ' ll come speak to myself, Derrick, Dan
17 Arlington, who ' s ( inaudible ) building official .
18 For instance, we have someone who ' s doing a
19 renovation and they ' re -- they schedule a meeting
20 to meet with us on Thursday . So we meet with them
21 and talk about everything with the design and, you
22 know, we permit roughly 20 , 25 , 30 new homes a
23 year and I would say, I mean it ' s very close to a
24 hundred percent that they meet with staff . And
25 when I say staff, not -- not kind of clerical
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1 staff .
2 So I mean could someone go to our road crews
3 and ask to do something and then get authorization
4 from them to do it? You know, I don ' t know .
5 FEMALE SPEAKER: Were they actually issued a
6 permit for siding?
7 MALE SPEAKER: No .
8 FEMALE SPEAKER: So at no point did the
9 second contractor receive a new permit?
10 MALE SPEAKER: Apparently -- apparently they
11 were just told that they didn ' t need to get a new
12 permit . So they didn ' t submit anything, they just
13 apparently were told --
14 FEMALE SPEAKER: Was there -- is there a -- I
15 guess I 'm looking for a paper trial .
16 MALE SPEAKER: We have no paper trail unless
17 they have one that we haven ' t heard about .
18 FEMALE SPEAKER: So in theory the second
19 contractor didn ' t receive anything from the city,
20 not a letter, a permanent, just interaction
21 between two individuals?
22 MALE SPEAKER : Not that we ' re aware of .
23 MALE SPEAKER: Well ( inaudible) can probably
24 correct me on this . I think there was a permit
25 for the interior remodel portion . We have
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1 different classifications for different types of
2 permit . An interior remodel I think is RAR.
3 FEMALE SPEAKER: Like if we ' re just looking
4 specifically for the siding, it ' s a secondary
5 permit .
6 MALE SPEAKER: We did not have a permit for
7 it .
8 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay . So the second
9 contractor did not obtain a new permit for siding,
10 but they did obtain a new permit for the interior
11 work .
12 MALE SPEAKER : Correct .
13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Thank you .
14 FEMALE SPEAKER: Derrick, could you put up
15 the color photo again or the color rendering of
16 how the building under the current --
17 MALE SPEAKER: This one?
18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes . I just wanted to see
19 it .
20 MR. ELMORE : Derrick, do you know how long
21 this particular ordinance has been in play in the
22 North Land Development regulations?
23 MALE SPEAKER: At least 2001 . That was one
24 of our major changes .
25 MR. ELMORE : I mean I wasn ' t aware of it, but
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1 that doesn ' t mean anything, but it seems a little
2 obscure . But I didn ' t know if there was some
3 history as to why that was inserted in there . I
4 mean I can get the general idea except there ' s
5 not, you know, the connected units are the same in
6 their texture . But I don ' t know if that ' s almost
7 a little bit of an over thing, but that ' s not what
8 we ' re here to discuss tonight so . . .
9 MALE SPEAKER: I would suspect that at the
10 same time we also did the zone -- or down zoning
11 of parts of Atlantic Beach that previously allowed
12 two-family structures . So it could have been a
13 way to try to push the issue for removal by
14 limiting the changes allowable . This one ' s still
15 allowed today so it wouldn ' t have been affected by
16 that .
17 FEMALE SPEAKER: And, Derrick, I 'm trying to
18 remember our discussion from last meeting . If
19 this were a three or four-unit , would there still
20 be the same rule about there has to be the same
21 material , same color, et cetera?
22 MALE SPEAKER: Yes .
23 FEMALE SPEAKER: It would . Okay.
24 MR. ELMORE : I don ' t know if this is the
25 point in the discussion to bring this in, but, you
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1 know, occasionally LDRs needs to be updated or
2 things need to be tweaked to fit the current best
3 practices for building . As technologies change,
4 materials are introduced, newer materials are
5 introduced .
6 And I was not at the first meeting, and I
7 will say that, but , you know, stucco over plywood
8 or over OSB has been a complete disaster . I can ' t
9 tell you how many apartment complexes I ' ve worked
10 on that within five years after initial
11 construction they ' re having to re-veneer the whole
12 thing .
13 Stucco has traditionally always been done on
14 block or concrete and that ' s where its origins are
15 and that ' s where it should really be, but I know
16 building practices do use stucco and they have
17 improved it significantly from 20 years ago, but
18 the higher you go the more problems you have .
19 And there are now a lot of acceptable
20 products that are used in conjunction with each
21 other, such as the Hardy products , the Hardy
22 board, the board and batten, the ship-lap siding,
23 all of which are greatly improved products . And
24 they ' re used -- they ' re co-mingled all the time .
25 I mean I sit on the ARB of Atlantic Beach
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1 Country Club for the homes that are going in there
2 and I bet you 80 percent of the homes have a
3 combination of cedar shake, board and batten and
4 siding, sometimes on all three, and if it ' s
5 designed properly it can look good. But, you
6 know, all three of those come together and, you
7 know, right now I can see, because of the water
8 issues they ' ve had there, that this is an
9 acceptable alternative that is more -- works
10 better on a wood frame structure than stucco does .
11 And so I -- you know, I ' m kind of thinking, I
12 know what the ordinance says , but I also know that
13 maybe it ' s a little dated . And you see a lot of
14 these -- I know Hardy is just one manufacturer,
15 but you see a lot of these different Hardy
16 products used intermittently on a lot of new homes
17 going up and sometimes with stucco base, ship-lap
18 top, one side might be board and batten . It
19 sounds a little crazy, but that ' s kind of where
20 it ' s going .
21 So to me if this one building remains in
22 Hardy ship-lap siding it ' s just going to look more
23 modern -- more up-to-date, I should say, not
24 modern, but up-to-date than what it looks before,
25 which is , you know, actually pretty beige and
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1 banal . So . . .
2 MS . SIMMONS : You know, I think that probably
3 should go in our discussion .
4 MR. ELMORE : Right . That ' s correct .
5 FEMALE SPEAKER: ( Inaudible) .
6 MS . PAUL : Okay . Well, let ' s have the -- if
7 you guys don ' t have any additional questions for
8 staff, I would like the applicant to come up and
9 make their statement .
10 Do you guys have any additional staff
11 questions ?
12 (No response . )
13 MS . PAUL : All right . Thank you .
14 MS . DUNCAN : Hello . My name is Catherine
15 Duncan . I 'm the architect on the project . My
16 address is 1922 Felch Avenue, Jacksonville ,
17 Florida, 32207 .
18 I would like to explain the history of stucco
19 use on the building and help you understand why a
20 variance to change the exterior material from stucco
21 to lap siding is in the best interest of the City of
22 Atlantic Beach .
23 This building has had a history of water
24 damage . There have been three attempts to
25 waterproof this building . The first was the
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1 original construction . Water damage from stucco
2 failure was part of a long list of construction
3 defects .
4 The owners of Unit No . 88 and 90 filed a
5 lawsuit against the original contractor based on the
6 Alta Engineering report, which I ' ve included in your
7 packet .
8 During the process , the owner of Unit No . 88
9 sold their property to Dr . Doward six years after
10 the original construction . Dr . Doward purchased the
11 property in 2013, unaware of the original report and
12 ongoing lawsuit .
13 He recognized the water problems and attempted
14 to remedy by hiring a contractor, Bosco Custom
15 Homes .
16 It was determined that stucco was causing the
17 problems . The entire Unit No . 88 was rebuilt with
18 studs , new windows , half-inch sheeting,
19 waterproofing and stucco . It was part of the second
20 phase and it was an attempt to reinstall stucco .
21 The building continued to leak and deteriorate .
22 All the improvements began to deteriorate . For a
23 third time, in the short life of the building, the
24 improvements needed to be replaced due to water
25 damage .
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1 Already Dr . Doward had paid to reinstall stucco
2 once on the building . At this point the owner and
3 Bosco Contractors parted ways .
4 Dr . Doward hired Ken Lothren (phonetically) ,
5 structural engineer and building envelope
6 consultant, to determine how to get the exterior
7 waterproofed .
8 Mr . Lothren prepared a report dated February,
9 2014 that outlined the failure to the flashing and
10 stucco accessories and recommended replacement of
11 the stucco accessories and the waterproofing .
12 Upon Mr . Lothren ' s recommendations to create a
13 new drainage plane and his concern that stucco is
14 not appropriate for the building, the architect felt
15 that the exterior material needed to be
16 reconsidered . It seemed to be the wrong material
17 for the building .
18 To prevent further damage and solve the ongoing
19 problem, at this point it had been over a year and
20 the owner hadn ' t been able to move in, the lap
21 siding was selected to alleviate the problems
22 inherent with stucco .
23 This attempt was successful . The siding was
24 installed and the building is not leaking . It
25 worked .
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1 However, it was brought to our attention that
2 the City of Atlantic Beach requires the use of
3 stucco on this unit, only because it ' s currently on
4 Unit No . 90 , which, as you will see, there ' s a
5 bigger issue than matching Unit No . 90 .
6 All the engineering reports cite stucco as a
7 major contributor to the damage of the building .
8 If it is reapplied simply to match the adjacent
9 unit, Dr . Doward will continue to experience water
10 problems . How many times is he required to rebuild
11 his unit if this variance is not granted?
12 I ' d like to show you some quick photos of just
13 some of the water damage .
14 Derrick, do I -- okay .
15 This is the building when it was first -- Dr .
16 Doward first purchased the building, on the
17 exterior . You could see a few problems with the
18 cracks and the water mold, but overall it looked
19 pretty good.
20 The interior looked really good . You could
21 smell mold on the inside , but the paint and all the
22 finishes looked pretty good .
23 You can see that all the doors and windows had
24 fogged up . Here you can start to see some of the
25 exploration .
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1 This is the 30-foot high wall on the south side
2 of Dr . Doward ' s unit with lots of windows , which
3 means every time it rains the water as it hits --
4 the stucco is a material that is supposed to accept
5 water . In other words , it ' s a porous material where
6 water is going to get into the stucco . The problem
7 with stucco is that the water many times can ' t get
8 back out . And when you have a really tall building,
9 with no overhang, wood construction, lots of
10 windows , you find that the water cannot get back out
11 as it travels all the way down to the bottom of the
12 building .
13 This is just an example of one of the problems .
14 The front portico roof watered away and had to be
15 taken off .
16 This is showing the damage as the contractor
17 started to explore . You could find lots of rotten
18 wood .
19 This is on the interior in the kitchen area .
20 All the kitchen cabinets had to be pulled out .
21 Little by little he had to open up the building to
22 find all of these areas . As can you see, it was
23 originally sheathed with OSB board, which cannot be
24 repaired from the interior . All the wall has to be
25 taken out in order to -- to repair the stucco .
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1 This is showing water at the first floor . As
2 it came in, it would pool at the bottom of the three
3 stories .
4 Rotten wood, rotten wood at the roof -- at the
5 edge of the roof where the parapet wall hit the roof
6 line . Windows fogged up, rotten wood around all of
7 the windows .
8 This is showing holes in the OSB because you
9 cannot repair it . So once the siding starts to
10 deteriorate, it just keeps getting worse .
11 This is showing around the window the rotten
12 wood around the frame . Everything had to be pulled
13 out, including all of the bad insulation . Holes in
14 the siding .
15 And this was all during the rainy season, like
16 right now. So the whole thing, every time it would
17 rain, water would pour in .
18 This is showing, after -- in Phase 2 when we
19 tried to replace all of the OSB with plywood, all
20 the framing had to be rebuilt .
21 His second -- his first contractor installed a
22 Carlyle waterproofing material over the new plywood.
23 This is showing the front porch .
24 But all of the items were installed
25 incorrectly, which is one of the challenges with a
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1 lot of the stucco work .
2 This is showing one year later after he started
3 peeling back the waterproofing . More rotten wood
4 around the new windows . So all this had been
5 replaced and already, one year later, rotting . All
6 the stucco accessories installed incorrectly.
7 This is at the point where we decided we ' ve got
8 to come up with a new plan and this is when lap
9 siding, in order to create a drain plane, could go
10 on the building which would allow the water to dry
11 out between -- and also the laps in the siding allow
12 a positive drainage away from the building .
13 We installed window pans around all the
14 windows . And this is showing the exterior .
15 The lap siding seemed like a great material
16 because it ' s a material that ' s used thought Atlantic
17 Beach .
18 This is the adjacent property with the lap
19 siding . And this is showing from the balcony across
20 the street, which is a parking lot . So this is the
21 lap siding material .
22 We are asking for a variance that would prevent
23 the perpetuation of a known problem. City
24 ordinances can ' t always address the complexities
25 associated with every building situation . When the
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1 health, safety and welfare are jeopardized or
2 unforeseen circumstances arise, variances provide a
3 remedy .
4 This is no longer an issue of aesthetics .
5 Dr . Doward has been advised by his architect,
6 numerous structure and waterproofing specialist
7 engineers , all who are licensed in the State of
8 Florida, all who have cited significant structural
9 damage , water damage, roof damage and potential
10 health problems that needed to be corrected, and the
11 remedy, which is lap siding, to correct the problem.
12 He has followed all of their recommendations .
13 For the first time his building has been
14 waterproofed .
15 How would you feel if you were Dr . Doward who
16 has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to make
17 his unit liveable? Would you feel good about
18 another renovation that would take the building back
19 to stucco?
20 In this situation a variance is respectfully
21 requested to allow the lap siding to remain, which
22 not only looks attractive, but also protects the
23 structural soundness of the building .
24 Thank you .
25 MS . PAUL : All right . Before I open it up to
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1 public comment, do you guys have any additional
2 questions for the applicant .
3 (No response .
4 MS . PAUL : And for the applicant, I see that
5 you did bring any -- several other consultants
6 with you . Do they also plan to speak?
7 MS . DUNCAN : Yes .
8 THE COURT : All right . Would that be Mr . Ron
9 Woods?
10 MR. ELMORE : Can I ask a question real quick
11 of the owner and their representatives?
12 The current, the other unit , the other stucco
13 unit, is that unit occupied right now?
14 MS . DUNCAN : It is (inaudible) .
15 MR. ELMORE : Okay .
16 FEMALE SPEAKER: ( Inaudible) .
17 MS . PAUL : Yes, we ' ll let her speak during
18 the public comment portion, yes .
19 MR. ELMORE : Okay .
20 MALE SPEAKER: ( Inaudible ) any other
21 questions .
22 MR . WOOD : Okay . Thank you .
23 My name is Ron Woods . I ' m a consulting
24 engineer and I 'm here on behalf of Dr . Doward to
25 touch on a little bit of the stucco issues that
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1 I ' ve run into in the past ten years or so .
2 Actually longer than that, but significantly in
3 the past ten years .
4 My company has investigated over 200
5 condominium buildings that have failed to perform
6 because of stucco problems . It ' s not only the
7 stucco itself . The stucco itself, if it ' s done
8 correctly, is not a bad material . However, it ' s
9 the interfacing of that waterproofing below the
10 stucco that becomes a problem, and it ' s
11 problematic in almost every wood frame building
12 that we ' ve run into .
13 And one of the issues that we have here with
14 this is that it ' s an insidious problem. You don ' t
15 see it . Stucco looks nice and smooth on the
16 outside, it doesn ' t show any indication other than
17 some minor cracks to start with, and then it
18 starts to deteriorate because more water is
19 allowed in . Because of the lack of interfacing
20 between the stucco and the appropriate
21 waterproofing below that , we have these problems .
22 This is an example here, you look in the
23 upper right, that is a large wall on a two-story
24 condominium building . And it ' s just a blank wall .
25 There ' s no windows or anything in that one . And
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1 you can see that the OSB, which is the solid
2 portion of that, is essentially gone down below .
3 And then looking a little bit closer there you ' ll
4 see that the studs have rotted as well . That ' s
5 just a common occurrence . Seen it many, many
6 times .
7 And the result of this is the loss of more than
8 $40 million on the ones I ' ve worked on . More than
9 $40 million to repair that to the owners of these
10 buildings . And that ' s a significant amount . There
11 -- we only touch on a relatively small amount of the
12 problem in northeast Florida . It ' s significantly
13 higher than that . Easily over a hundred million
14 dollars in the past ten years with stucco damage for
15 waterproofing damage .
16 Is stucco acceptable under the Florida Building
17 Code? Yes . But Mr . Arlington probably knows as
18 much about stucco as anybody in this area . He ' s
19 dealt with it as well . And the Code does allow it ,
20 but it has to be applied correctly. And that ' s the
21 difficulty .
22 We don ' t have licensing requirements for stucco
23 subcontractors . The general contractor carries the
24 license, does the permit, but the subcontractors
25 don ' t have to be licensed . Most general
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1 contractors , this is not what they do, they hire the
2 subcontractors who are supposed to know something so
3 they don ' t have to know about stucco .
4 The details for construction have to be
5 specific . They have to tell the contractor, the
6 subcontractor, exactly how to do this waterproofing
7 interfacing or it doesn ' t work .
8 And then they have to follow it . The Building
9 Code has very specific requirements as well . It ' s
10 gotten better and better over the years . Since 2001
11 when the Florida Building Code came into play there
12 have been significant problems in each addition of
13 the Code to help with stucco . And that has improved
14 the knowledge of contractors, but it hasn ' t stopped
15 all the damage .
16 And this building was built in 2006 . In 2010 ,
17 ' 11 , ' 12 , those problems were showing up . That is
18 consistent with -- with stucco on wood frame where
19 the waterproofing is not interfaced right . They
20 just want to make it look good . It does for
21 awhile .
22 Now, let ' s compare a little bit . Stucco and
23 lap siding . Stucco is made at the site from loose
24 materials . Take bags of this , shovel full of this ,
25 mix water with it, put it all together, put it on
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1 the building . And lap siding is controlled. It ' s
2 made in a manufacturing plant, process is
3 controlled, so it ' s a somewhat better product in
4 that respect because it ' s certainly more controlled .
5 Stucco has to be isolated from other materials ,
6 meaning that every penetration where stucco goes in
7 has to be isolated, has to be sealed, and that
8 includes windows , that includes electrical , that
9 includes any plumbing penetration on the outside .
10 Anything that breaks that stucco plane has to be
11 sealed . And that ' s a difficulty because you have
12 multiple trades . Some of them don ' t take
13 responsibility for this , another won ' t take
14 responsibility for that, so you end up with nobody
15 doing it .
16 Lap siding . You don ' t have to isolate it .
17 It ' s a cementitious material, but it doesn ' t have to
18 be isolated from the other materials because it ' s
19 relatively stable from a shrinkage and expansion
20 standpoint . It ' s easy to install . It does allow
21 air flow and drainage behind it .
22 There is a drainage plane behind conventional
23 stucco . I think there was some mention about not
24 having a drainage plane . Conventional stucco has a
25 drainage plane . The difficulty is it doesn ' t have
28
1 any air interface in there . So that drainage plane
2 has to be essentially perfect . It has to protect
3 the wood, allow water to come in and slide down that
4 plane and then come back out the building . And if
5 it ' s done properly, that can be done, but it
6 requires a lot of effort and it requires somebody
7 usually standing there looking at the subcontractor
8 saying, no, you ' re not doing that correctly, you
9 have to do it this way .
10 In this particular application I would not
11 recommend the use of stucco, for a variety of
12 reasons . One is the environment . It ' s right on the
13 coast . Humidity is always higher . So it ' s more
14 difficult for that stucco to allow the -- the
15 permeation of water outside or for the drying of
16 water to the outside rather than keeping it on the
17 inside . If there ' s anything done incorrectly below
18 the surface of the stucco, then you ' ll have a
19 problem that you can ' t recover from.
20 A little reasoning for lap siding . It provides
21 a better, more controllable protection for the
22 structure of the building . In this case the stucco
23 did not protect the building .
24 And I have a point to make at the end of this
25 about the other side of the building . Lap siding is
29
1 consistent and compatible with coastal construction .
2 You ' ve got lap siding on both sides of this
3 building, the structures on both sides .
4 In this case it ' s an aesthetic enhancement .
5 Stucco looks great, looks very good for a few years ,
6 in fact, until it starts to fall apart . And if it ' s
7 done well and is done properly, it lasts for many
8 years . But the difficulty is getting it done
9 properly.
10 Lap siding you have predictable performance,
11 you know what it ' s going to do, you know when it
12 might have to be replaced, and that ' s a pretty long
13 time away. Less difficult to install and more
14 forgiving of minor mistakes .
15 Stucco is difficult to get on there right and
16 not make mistakes, and those mistakes are very
17 costly to the owner of the building .
18 Result . What you ' ll end up with is a fairly
19 beautiful updated residence that enhances both
20 properties, increases the value of both of those
21 properties, financially and aesthetically, and it ' s
22 consistent with the surrounding features and
23 environment .
24 My last point . There are two sections of this
25 building . It ' s all built at the same time , built
30
1 out of the same materials , built by the same
2 contractor, in the same manner .
3 The left side of the building, Dr . Doward ' s
4 side, had significant problems . Count on it, the
5 right side has those same problems . Dr . Doward has
6 repaired his , at great expense . The right side,
7 some partial repairs .
8 I ' ve found over many years of doing this that
9 partial repairs to stucco don ' t work . They lead to
10 greater damage in the future and more problems .
11 According to Alta Engineering ' s report, this
12 would be classified as substantial structural damage
13 when remediation occurs to the second side . That is
14 a provision within the Florida Building Code for
15 existing buildings , that you categorize the damage,
16 and he has categorized that as substantial
17 structural damage .
18 That was done by Brad Newkirk who is the
19 engineer at Alta Engineering . I ' ve known him for
20 many years . He ' s a good engineer .
21 The adjacent property must also be remediated
22 to maintain the structural integrity of this
23 building . So I don ' t know who the owner is , I ' ve
24 never met him, but I think that the reports that
25 have been given to him should be fair warning that
31
1 something needs to be done to the rest of the
2 building as well .
3 Any questions?
4 MS . LANIER: I have two questions .
5 MR. WOODS : Yes .
6 MS . LANIER: And they ' re very different
7 questions . One of the questions is are the issues
8 with the stucco application more extreme because
9 the building is three stories high? Does that --
10 is it more difficult to make stucco right when
11 it ' s three stories high as opposed to, say, in
12 Atlantic Beach Country Club where you may have
13 some stucco on one part of one story or that kind
14 of thing? Is it a three-story issue at all?
15 MR. WOODS : Not really .
16 MS . LANIER : Okay.
17 MR. WOODS : It could be three stories . We
18 just designed and had remediated a 12-story stucco
19 remediation .
20 MS . LANIER: Okay.
21 MR. WOODS : And as long as it ' s done properly
22 then, with the divisions of the floor lines
23 correctly, then it can be done .
24 MS . LANIER : Okay . Then my second question
25 is is it possible that that side of the building
32
1 has suffered damage more quickly because it ' s the
2 south side of the building?
3 And I ' m just thinking about my own home .
4 Like I can tell the cedar shakes on the south side
5 of my home suffer more than what ' s on the north
6 side of my home . Is there a difference there?
7 MR. WOODS : You might think that, but in some
8 cases the south side might actually be less prone
9 to damage because of the greater drying effect .
10 MS . LANIER: Oh, okay .
11 MR. WOODS : And the north side, as a matter
12 of fact, one that we investigated and ultimately
13 was remediated within the past three years down in
14 St . Johns County, that was 15 condominium
15 buildings , and on one of those buildings , while we
16 were investigating the rest of it , we heard a
17 complaint that there was significant cracking on
18 the back side, which in this case was the north
19 side of the building . We went over to look at it
20 and the wall was collapsing under the stucco . So
21 that had to be shored up immediately and taken
22 care of . It was all on the north side .
23 MS . LANIER: Okay. Thank you .
24 MS . PAUL : You guys have any additional
25 questions?
33
1 MR. WOODS : And those buildings were all
2 replaced with lap siding .
3 MS . PAUL : All right . Thank you, Mr . Woods .
4 Dr . Doward, do you have any additional
5 consultants that would like to speak or would you
6 like to make a statement?
7 DR. DOWARD: I ' ll make a statement .
8 So I 'm Dr . Doward. I ' m a physician at the
9 Jacksonville Orthopedic Institute and also a
10 community member here in Atlantic Beach . I ' ve been
11 here for nine years . I really love Atlantic Beach .
12 And I waited to purchase my first home ever
13 here in Atlantic Beach and I bought 88 Ocean
14 Boulevard and I bought it in good faith that I
15 would be buying a good house . I wanted to buy a
16 house that wasn ' t too old, I wouldn ' t have to make
17 any changes and I ' d be able to move in. And I ' ve
18 gotten exactly the opposite of that .
19 I worked with a realtor who helped me research
20 this property. We were made aware of some minor,
21 quote unquote, minor structural problems . We got a
22 home inspection like we were supposed to . They
23 told us that we should get further clarification on
24 the extent of the damage with a contractor .
25 I used Bosco Construction who told me with his
34
1 30 years of experience that beyond a doubt he could
2 fix this and that there was only a minor amount of
3 damage, I wouldn ' t need to spend too much money to
4 do that .
5 And so I was feeling pretty good about buying
6 the property and, furthermore, I had what I thought
7 was my -- a friendly neighbor, the adjacent owners,
8 who had been encouraging me to actually buy the
9 other townhouse for years and who also told me that
10 there was some minor damage to their side and some
11 minor damage to my side . And so I was like I ' ve
12 got this, this is -- this is going to be great,
13 this is going to be a great investment .
14 Only I had no idea that behind the scenes that
15 they had hired a structural engineer, with the owner
16 that I bought it from, and -- and -- and that there
17 was all of this extensive damage that was put --
18 that was presented in the Alta report that you all
19 have . I didn ' t have that information .
20 So in my -- the adjacent owners used this
21 report to go in a lawsuit and sue the original
22 contractor, and they were awarded money to make
23 repairs to their unit, which they ' ve done partial
24 repairs , certainly not the extensive repairs noted
25 in the Alta report .
35
1 I just want to bring that up because I think
2 that ' s pretty critical .
3 So at this stage of the game, because there was
4 some issues about why this whole -- this whole thing
5 has taken so long . Neither the original owner,
6 neither my contractor at the time, who actually had
7 this report, Bosco, or my neighbors disclosed to me
8 at all any of the extent of this structural damage .
9 So by the time I figured this all out, about
10 five months after I had purchased the property, I
11 had a house that was underwater, I had wood framing
12 that was rotting out and I had an interior space
13 that was reeking of mold . So I had to hire a lawyer
14 to help me sort through these problems which, of
15 course , took time .
16 Once I got a grip on the extent of the problems
17 and with the help of my architect, who ' s really the
18 one who stayed me because, honestly, I would be
19 living in a mold-filled house right now. I really
20 would be . In fact, thinking I 'm doing such a great
21 job living in beautiful Atlantic Beach with the
22 flesh air and I ' d be getting sick right now, and my
23 family and my friends who would be staying with me .
24 I just want to make that clear .
25 So my architect, thank God for her, helped me
36
1 assemble a full team of specialists who were going
2 to help me do this right . And this included a
3 structural engineer, a waterproofing specialist, a
4 new contractor, a landscaping architect and many
5 other consultants .
6 I went far beyond what would be required for
7 your typical homeowner to do this right because I ,
8 A, care about where I live and, B, I love Atlantic
9 Beach and I want to do this right and I want to add
10 something to the community .
11 So, anyhow, we have work worked diligently to
12 do all of the repairs outlined in this Alta report,
13 and that included removing all the stucco, windows
14 and doors . My neighbors have not done any of that .
15 I cannot begin to express to this committee how
16 this property and these construction issues have
17 consumed my life . Okay? I bought this property in
18 April of 2013 and I thought I was moving in three
19 months later . Okay. I can ' t begin to tell you how
20 many hours of work I ' ve missed . I can ' t begin to
21 tell you how many hundreds of thousands of dollars
22 that I have spent on this property, just to do it
23 right .
24 This has affected every aspect of my life from
25 my work to my emotional wellness, to my physical
37
1 health, to not be able to move into my home . A
2 man ' s castle is his home and I have not been able to
3 do that . So I ' ve been renting another place while
4 all of this has been going on .
5 I 'm a busy man and I have been extremely
6 inconvenienced by the entire process after
7 purchasing this property and I can ' t begin to tell
8 you my financial costs for this whole process .
9 I would hope none of this to happen to you or
10 your family members . It is unfair in a way that I
11 cannot begin to explain to you .
12 If these extenuating circumstances do not
13 qualify for a variance in Atlantic Beach, then I am
14 living in the wrong community because this is just
15 wrong and this needs to be made right and that ' s
16 what I have to say about that .
17 Thank you .
18 MS . PAUL : All right . Do you guys have any
19 additional questions for the applicant?
20 (No response . )
21 MS . PAUL : All right . I would like to take
22 this time to open this up to public comment and I
23 have Ms . Roy .
24 MS . ROY : Hi . My name is Andrea Roy and I
25 live at 90 Ocean Boulevard and I am the neighbor
38
1 that ' s to the immediate north of Dr . Doward. So
2 we live on the adjacent property.
3 My thoughts may be a little bit disjointed so
4 bear with me , if you would.
5 First I would like to address the procedural
6 history that Dr . Doward articulated when he first
7 purchased the property .
8 My husband did speak quite animatedly during
9 the last hearing, but I will say this . In no way,
10 shape or form were we in cahoots with the prior
11 owner of 88 Ocean Boulevard, as Dr . Doward would
12 like you -- like to have you believe .
13 Additionally, he also failed to tell you that
14 he intervened on that lawsuit and was also
15 compensated for whatever there -- whatever damages
16 were awarded in that lawsuit that he ' s talking
17 about .
18 Dr . Doward mentioned that he was
19 inconvenienced. We ' ve been inconvenienced as well .
20 I ' ve been pregnant and I ' ve had an 18 month old
21 during this entire time . My husband works at a
22 children ' s hospital . We have had, since our side
23 was renovated -- and I ' m sorry, I 'm getting a little
24 bit emotional here . When our side was renovated, my
25 husband wanted to make sure that nothing would
39
1 happen to me or my son or my husband, more
2 specifically, any mold issues , anything like that .
3 After stucco was reapplied to our unit, we had
4 an independent water expert come in before we
5 finally settled up with Todd Bosco just to make sure
6 that there was no other issues that needed to be
7 addressed . That independent water expert came back
8 and said any moisture issues -- there were no
9 moisture issues .
10 So, you know, it ' s really -- I sit here and I ' m
11 just in awe that he would represent that somehow we
12 misled him when Dr . Doward engaged in communication
13 with the Ferrignos , who were the prior owners of 88
14 Ocean Boulevard . He was aware that there was a
15 pending lawsuit . He has business acumen and
16 financial resources .
17 If I was going to purchase a property that I
18 knew was in litigation, I would have hired a lawyer
19 at that outset . I would have had that lawyer
20 communicate with the plaintiffs ' attorney to figure
21 out, hey, what ' s going on here , what ' s my total
22 cost, is this something that I should even pursue .
23 So as he stands here, it ' s just -- I think it ' s
24 -- to put somehow the onus on us that we should have
25 apprised him of what his due diligence should be is
40
1 ridiculous .
2 But I don ' t want to go off on a tangent . I ' ve
3 said my piece as far as that is concerned .
4 It ' s uncontroverted . Everybody here has said
5 that stucco is an acceptable building material if
6 it ' s installed properly . Everybody said that .
7 Mr . Woods has said that . I ' m here to tell you I
8 live at 90 Ocean Boulevard and we haven ' t had any
9 issues since our home was renovated with stucco .
10 They also failed to mention that that Alta
11 report, that I think that they compiled a very fancy
12 packet for you to review . That Alta report also
13 said -- recommends the use of stucco application
14 again . So I think the uncontroverted testimony this
15 evening is that stucco is acceptable if it ' s
16 properly applied.
17 Now, my concern is basically the impact on this
18 variance on my property . I know that Mr . Woods has
19 testified that it would somehow enhance our property
20 values , but he is -- I think his business is
21 contracting . He ' s not a realtor . There hasn ' t been
22 any evidence presented that it ' s not going to
23 adversely impact our property values .
24 And, secondly, aesthetics is also an issue that
25 I would like to address . When you take a look at
41
1 the area that we live in, that ' s the corridor to
2 Atlantic Beach . Anything that ' s slightly dissimilar
3 I would argue creates structural and aesthetic
4 disharmony .
5 When I took a look at the rendering, and I
6 didn ' t have the benefit of reviewing the rendering
7 prior to being here today, but some peripheral
8 differences were trim. And I know that the trim on
9 Dr . Doward ' s side is dark, ours -- there ' s still
10 disunity and I think there ' s archway changes as
11 well .
12 I think this is a situation that the Code
13 specifically addresses . If you take a look at 24
14 dash 64 sub C the AB Code specifically states that
15 variances shall not be granted solely for the
16 personal comfort or convenience, for relief from
17 financial circumstances or for relief from
18 situations created by the property owner . And
19 that ' s what we have here .
20 This A team that Dr . Doward compiled didn ' t
21 fail to get the proper permitting and so now they
22 sit here and they beg for forgiveness .
23 I would like to know how this would impact our
24 property values and nobody has spoken to that .
25 And that ' s all I 'm going to say and I ' m going
42
1 to respectfully sit down .
2 Thank you .
3 MS . PAUL : All right . The last public
4 comment card I have for this , I can ' t read the
5 last name . It looks like the first name is Eric .
6 MALE SPEAKER: I don ' t ( inaudible) have one .
7 MR. MILLER : I 'm Eric Miller with -- I live
8 at 2610 Orange Street in Jacksonville Beach,
9 Florida . I ' ve been a realtor at the beaches since
10 1999 and I ' ve done several condo developments with
11 my father-in-law and some other big developers in
12 the area as well as I ' ve been selling residential
13 real estate since 2005 .
14 I 'm just here to actually further go on about
15 property values with what Kelly had said earlier,
16 that most of the builders that are around recently
17 in Jacksonville Beach and Neptune Beach, Atlantic
18 Beach have all gone to the lap siding or Hardy
19 board and -- and sometimes use both and the batten
20 board as well . And the reason they ' re doing this
21 is because of the property values are increasing
22 using that type material because people are having
23 issues in the past with stucco leaking and just
24 water intrusion in general around windows with
25 stucco . That ' s been the biggest thing I ' ve seen .
43
1 I can see that the property values on
2 townhomes, whether used with stucco or Hardy board
3 mixture even, have increased the look of more like a
4 beach-feel neighborhood, especially some of the
5 newer construction .
6 I don ' t know if any of you are familiar with
7 the Ossi development . They do a lot of houses with
8 mostly some Hardy board lap siding and they ' re --
9 their property values are probably, you know,
10 anywhere from 15 to 20 to $30 a square foot more
11 than a typical home that was built, you know, five
12 -- even five or ten years ago . And the aesthetics
13 of that is more of a beach feel than stucco .
14 I don ' t know if you have any questions about --
15 MALE SPEAKER: I 'm sorry . Can you actually
16 address the fact that actually property values
17 increase when you --
18 MS . PAUL : I 'm sorry, sir . Were you with the
19 applicant or are you making general public
20 comment?
21 MR . MILLER: I was making public comment
22 about the value of the --
23 MS . PAUL : Thank you .
24 MR. MILLER : But I was associated with the
25 applicant as the original real estate agent .
44
1 MS . PAUL : All right . Thank you .
2 MR. MILLER: The only other thing that I can
3 add is that the value on this particular property
4 will no way be affected . If anything the
5 neighborhood -- or the neighbor adjacent to them,
6 it will not in any way hinder their property and
7 will increase their property, based on their house
8 being more than likely, based on the evidence that
9 they -- that their attorneys have said here before,
10 the Hardy board is definitely a better product . I
11 have it on my house and I ' ve had it for 14 years
12 and we don ' t have any water issues .
13 MS . PAUL : All right . Thank you .
14 MR. MILLER: Thank you .
15 MS . PAUL : All right . The next comment I
16 have is Ronald -- is that Borders or Burders?
17 MR. BORDER: Borders .
18 MS . PAUL : Borders . All right .
19 MR. BORDERS : Unfortunately -- my name is
20 Ronald Borders . I live at 96 Ocean Boulevard,
21 which is the next house to the north to this -- to
22 this project . And I wasn ' t -- I forgot my pen so
23 I 'm a little disjointed.
24 But I just want to make a couple of comments .
25 The first one being early on in this discussion
45
1 there seemed to be some sort of sympathy for a --
2 for a builder that would come into city hall and
3 believe a clerk that would say, fine, you ' re okay,
4 you can work under the same permit and go ahead
5 and start putting lap siding on a building .
6 Secondly, a number of people have made comments
7 that lap siding looks great, it may enhance a
8 building, it may be worth more .
9 I think we need to make a distinction between
10 building a new house and the property that we ' re
11 talking about . That property was built, it was
12 stucco on both sides . We have admitted and experts
13 have admitted that stucco is a good product . It has
14 a problem with installation and, I 'm sorry, but just
15 because we have sloppy installers doesn ' t
16 necessarily mean you run to a different product .
17 And the last thing I want to say is the last
18 time we were here we came to find out that not only
19 did the variance ask for lap siding, but there were
20 a number of architectural changes that were being
21 made to the left side of the house . And I believe
22 at the time they said, well, we ' re going to plant
23 bamboo over on the south side and we ' re going to put
24 some big potted plants in the middle so that we can
25 have some sort of separation between the two .
46
1 So I guess if you approve this , my question is
2 is the left side of this house going to be identical
3 to the right side of this house with the exception
4 of the siding .
5 Thank you .
6 MS . PAUL : Thank you .
7 The next comment I have is Jenny Edwards .
8 MS . EDWARDS : Good evening . I ' m Jenny
9 Edwards from 335 Ahern Street .
10 Two things I ' d like to comment is I live in
11 one of those three-story buildings that were built
12 in 2007 and covered in stucco . And guess what?
13 We got mold in all the buildings . It ' s been
14 repaired once . It ' s going to have to be repaired
15 again . It ' s all going to have to come off . And
16 so it happens . It ' s Florida .
17 I 'm also in the building industry . It
18 happened a lot in 2007 and ' 8 . And one of the big
19 things is no licensing required to install stucco .
20 The second thing I would say is that the -- the
21 City of Atlantic Beach has already set precedents .
22 There are duplexes all around Atlantic Beach with
23 totally different siding .
24 One of them is at -- just around the corner
25 from Ocean Grove and 18th Street and this was just
47
1 done last year and it looks gorgeous . The new side
2 is beautiful . It actually increased the property
3 value of the people on the left that still have the
4 stucco .
5 FEMALE SPEAKER : I have a question . Where is
6 that?
7 MS . EDWARDS : It ' s on Ocean Grove . If you go
8 down Seminole, turn right on 18th, turn right on
9 Ocean Grove, the first building on the left is a
10 duplex and then the next one is the one that was
11 done .
12 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay . I know where it is .
13 MS . EDWARDS : I mean there ' s several , but
14 that ' s one that ' s been done recently and it did
15 improve the property value and it looks gorgeous .
16 The people who did the stucco, they had to tear
17 all their walls off again .
18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Well, how -- I guess my
19 question would be how did that happen of -- the
20 rules are the rules . How did that happen?
21 FEMALE SPEAKER: Can we address that during
22 discussion or should --
23 FEMALE SPEAKER: Thank you .
24 FEMALE SPEAKER : Thank you .
25 MS . PAUL : All right . The next comment I
48
1 have is Brian -- Plattock (phonetically) ?
2 MR. PLATTOCK: Close enough .
3 MS . PAUL : All right . What have I got? How
4 did I do?
5 MR. PLATTOCK: I 'm Brian Plattock . I 'm at
6 1640 Beach Avenue . I ' ve been in a member of the
7 community since 1995 and I love Atlantic Beach .
8 I think part of the character of Atlantic
9 Beach is, you know, having some different homes .
10 If everybody had the same home we ' d be living in,
11 you know, one of the movies . So I think -- I
12 drive by this property, too, almost everyday, and
13 I ' ve seen it .
14 You know, I think it -- when you have changes
15 that are harmonious , you know, and Kelly spoke to
16 the fact that most all these homes are now siding
17 and stucco . You see it everywhere . So those two
18 materials are harmonious in nature and I think
19 that when tastefully done the architectural
20 diversity, you know, is an enhancement on the
21 community .
22 And that ' s -- that ' s all I have to say.
23 MS . PAUL : All right . Thank you . Chris
24 Jorgenson .
25 MR. JORGENSON : Chris Jorgenson, 19
49
1 ( inaudible) 3rd Street, Atlantic Beach, Florida .
2 I spoke at the last meeting in relationship
3 to this item and the reason I want to speak
4 tonight is I did 15 years construction all over
5 the country. I ' ve done over a thousand houses ,
6 base work, all sorts of stuff .
7 What has become apparent , and was already
8 stated, is that stucco is perfectly fine when
9 properly applied . Two things are my concern with
10 this -- this particular item. First is if the
11 house was under litigation, the house had a stucco
12 problem, was redone with stucco and was not
13 ensured that it was properly redone with stucco,
14 there ' s something wrong there . The house already
15 had a stucco problem, you ' re going to redo it and
16 you redo it wrong? There ' s something very wrong
17 there .
18 Secondly, something very wrong to me is a house
19 had a stucco problem, you ' re going to redo it with
20 stucco . You redo it with stucco and you do it
21 wrong . So you know what? You ' re going to put
22 siding on, or whatever, put block up, whatever, but
23 you know what? You don ' t even bother to get a
24 contract or a variance or a permit from the city .
25 There ' s something very wrong there again .
50
1 Thank you .
2 MS . PAUL : All right . Is there any
3 additional public comment at this time?
4 (No response . )
5 FEMALE SPEAKER: I would like to close the
6 public comment portion and bring it back to the
7 Board for motion and discussion, or discussion and
8 motion .
9 I would actually like to start . I always go
10 last .
11 I have heard repeated talk about that the
12 stucco was installed poorly and that there ' s a lack
13 of licensure requirement on the subcontractor ' s
14 part, but I would like to point out that that is
15 part of the contractor ' s job to know the code and
16 to ensure that there are things installed the way
17 it required.
18 I personally own a flooring installation
19 business and I regularly encounter builders and
20 general contractors that do not understand the
21 flooring code and they just leave it up to their
22 subcontractors .
23 MS . ELMORE : Well, I think there ' s several
24 things at play here . The bottom line is there ' s
25 obviously -- the whole building was poorly
51
1 designed, poorly thought out, and until
2 corrections are made on both sides each one is
3 vulnerable because of the other . And that ' s part
4 and parcel of having a townhome because you have
5 the shared walls and now I think the first thing
6 is to protect the value of those homes , is that
7 the problems need to be corrected and they need to
8 be corrected properly.
9 I think that Dr . Doward has gone a long way
10 toward doing that . I mean I 'm very familiar with
11 the poor quality of stucco . I ' ve seen it for 20
12 years . And the industry is -- the building industry
13 is slowly getting away from the technique of stucco
14 over wood because of the inherit problems that you
15 saw on the slide show.
16 And I -- I think that the use of board and
17 batten or ship lap product is -- it ' s being driven
18 for a reason and I think it ' s a very good product
19 and I have no problem with it on one side of this
20 townhouse .
21 I mean if you look at classic architecture in
22 townhomes in, say, Charleston, for instance, every
23 townhome is a little different, even architecturally
24 in style and material use . Some developers have
25 emulated that .
52
1 I don ' t think it effects the aesthetics of the
2 city at all to have one building being ship lap and
3 one in stucco . It shouldn ' t remain that way.
4 I think that the owners to the north still have
5 a lot more issues to deal with that they may or may
6 not know of, but I also know that if I 'm Dr . Doward
7 I would want to make sure that my investment on the
8 south side, that my shared party wall is not going
9 to be leaking water because the neighbor to the
10 north has not addressed their issues .
11 The bottom line, it ' s a very poorly designed
12 building, it ' s going to continue to have problems .
13 One owner has taken -- has made the expensive effort
14 to get the problem fixed at his , you know, pretty
15 big expense .
16 You know, the licenses of contractors and
17 architects, one of the premiere things it says it ' s
18 for the health, safety and welfare of the community .
19 That ' s what your license is based on . That problem
20 needs to be corrected because the health, safety and
21 welfare of the individuals in both those townhomes
22 is at jeopardy without it being corrected .
23 I 'm -- I 'm all for granting this variance
24 because I think that ' s how you ' re going to correct
25 the problem. I think by leaving stucco on wood on
53
1 the north side is going to continue to create
2 problems .
3 There are so many things you can do with the
4 Hardy board as far as windowsills , vent openings ,
5 any changes in pitch that can be sealed. Stucco, it
6 cracks , it just ages over time, and I think the
7 neighbor to the north is going to have problems .
8 So I am going to recommend that we approve this
9 variance . This is a -- an unusual -- not unusual
10 circumstance . It ' s a circumstance that needs to be
11 addressed and addressed properly. Forcing him to
12 put stucco back is not the solution here .
13 FEMALE SPEAKER: I agree with Kelly and I
14 guess at this point, just sort of looking at the
15 history of this, Dr . Doward is in this spot not
16 for not trying . He ' s expended this money . He has
17 certainly consulted the experts . He ' s not in this
18 spot and this building isn ' t in this spot for lack
19 of attention or for neglect . It ' s really -- he ' s
20 really tried to do the right thing .
21 And I 'm just looking at this picture right
22 here and I have to say, and this is, you know, I 'm
23 not an architect, I probably have very limited
24 skills in that area, but I think this looks better
25 than the original building . It ' s a lot more
54
1 interesting and it ' s a much less of a monolith . I
2 think it ' s actually a better looking building and
3 so, you know, maybe in discussion down the road,
4 maybe it ' s time for Atlantic Beach to even
5 reconsider that notion that both sides of a double
6 have to mirror each other . I mean maybe -- maybe
7 we would be asking him to be compliant with a law
8 or a code that down the road we would really think
9 isn ' t such a good idea anyway. So I would -- I
10 would vote to support this variance .
11 MS . SIMMONS : I was going to say we are here
12 to support the law, not to make a judgment based on
13 what the law might be down the road . That would be
14 purely conjecture . I mean we would have no idea
15 what that might be .
16 And I would like to bring us back to where --
17 how we got into this in the first place is that
18 Section 2488B states that adjoining two family or a
19 townhouse dwelling unit shall be constructed of
20 substantially the same architectural style, colors
21 and materials .
22 We do have a material difference still, but I
23 remember looking at the unit before the last
24 meeting, seeing the Hardy board, and thinking,
25 well , the color is consistent, you know, if this
55
1 goes up I think it could work . But then we got in
2 here and we saw the pictures, and last time there
3 were a lot of pictures . The style was really quite
4 different . And we looked at some of those things .
5 And I think that a client and architect, and
6 whoever else has worked on this , have done a good
7 job of trying to make their side look really
8 presentable and yet tying it in as much as possible
9 with the other side, especially given the fact that
10 the other side may itself change over time, so that
11 we haven ' t in too many ways limited Dr . Doward, but
12 he has given -- he has compromised in order to try
13 to fit this -- this very variance that he ' s asked
14 for . So I 'm inclined to vote ( inaudible ) .
15 MR. ELMORE : Can I ask one question? I ' ll
16 ask it to Dan . When this building was permitted,
17 particularly being a three-story -- Dan Arlington .
18 I 'm sorry .
19 And I know you weren ' t with the city at that
20 time, but -- and wouldn ' t -- wouldn ' t structural
21 code require there to be a block fire wall between
22 those two units , particularly being three stories?
23 MR. ARLINGTON : There should be a fire wall
24 between them.
25 MALE SPEAKER: ( Inaudible ) .
56
1 MR. ARLINGTON : Independent from both sides .
2 I believe it ' s masonry, isn ' t it?
3 MALE SPEAKER: There is a block wall .
4 MR. ELMORE : There is a block wall between
5 the two? Okay. Well, that gives me a little
6 reassurance that there ' s less -- there ' s some
7 structural integrity despite the moisture issues .
8 But I didn ' t know if that was a code of the City,
9 because structural engineers can do lots of
10 different things to reach the two-hour rating, but
11 I don ' t know if the city -- ARC Building Code
12 mandated a block wall , fire wall between three
13 story structures or not .
14 MR. ARLINGTON : It does not . It goes strictly
15 by the Florida Building Code .
16 MR. ELMORE : Two-hour rating --
17 MR. ARLINGTON : They could -- they could have
18 had a frame wall there if they chose .
19 MR. HANSEN : I gave this a lot of thought
20 last time we were here and I ' ve given it a lot of
21 thought again and I 'm hearing what people are
22 saying . I hear the applicant, I hear the
23 neighbors, I know what you all are saying . And my
24 concern is that if we do -- if we grant this
25 variance that we ' re doing it on our opinions, our
57
1 personal opinions, and it going against what the
2 building regulations, what the Code says , and that
3 bothers me .
4 Every time I hear Dr . Doward my own heart
5 palpitates and I think of my own house and what ' s
6 probably going on inside there . I don ' t know
7 what ' s going on . It ' s probably the same kind of
8 problems .
9 I have all kinds of empathy for this, but I
10 just -- I just think that I would be going against
11 what we are here to do and that is to reasonably
12 apply what the -- what the Code says today and if
13 we think it should be changed, then let ' s change
14 it, but let ' s not do stuff until we change it .
15 MS . LANIER: Can I respond to that?
16 MR. HANSEN : Sure .
17 MS . LANIER : I -- I 'm in the same spot and as
18 -- as I kept reading this over yesterday, like how
19 can I -- how can we find a way to do the right
20 thing . I kept getting stuck on the word
21 substantially . How do we, and this is an opinion,
22 how do we interpret the word substantially?
23 And when I look at -- I held it up and now I
24 put it back in my papers so I can ' t find it .
25 There it is . When I look at this , I think they
58
1 are substantially the same . They are the same
2 color, they ' re the same sort of theme, they ' re the
3 same proportions . Some of the detail is
4 substantially or exactly the same . Same garage
5 doors . I think the two of these units, I think
6 they compliment each other and they are
7 substantially the same .
8 So that ' s how I really -- I had to work on
9 the word substantially and what did that mean to
10 me .
11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Well, I ' m concerned what
12 kind of a precedent that we will set . Are we
13 going to open the flood gate to everyone that has
14 stucco townhouses for the guy on one side to come
15 in and say, you know what, my stucco is failing, I
16 want something else?
17 MR. ELMORE : If you ' ve got a rotting problem
18 that will diminish the value of your house, I ' d
19 say --
20 FEMALE SPEAKER: And they can come in and
21 demonstrate it substantially or adequately?
22 MR. ELMORE : I 'm going to agree with Kirk in
23 that this particular verbiage of the LDR needs to
24 be reviewed and discussed . I think it ' s dated and
25 I think it -- it ' s not solving any problems . I
59
1 think we ' re seeing real issues because of real
2 weather and poor design and poor construction and
3 we ' re asking to keep a structure, no matter if the
4 other side ' s Kleenex, we ' re saying you got to make
5 -- you got to put Kleenex back on the other side
6 when it ' s not an acceptable building product or a
7 proven product that ' s a failure .
8 I mean keep, you know, doing the same thing
9 over and over again is , as you know --
10 FEMALE SPEAKER: Doesn ' t make it right .
11 MR. ELMORE : Yeah, it doesn ' t make it right .
12 So I mean products have improved, technology has
13 improved, waterproofing has improved . Insurance
14 continues to go up . So I think it ' s important
15 that the Code have some flexibility in it to allow
16 for this .
17 MS . SIMMONS : I agree, but we ' ve been going
18 on about this for an hour and a half and we have a
19 decision to make . I mean we can --
20 MR. ELMORE : Well, let ' s make it .
21 MS . SIMMONS : Yeah, that ' s --
22 MR. ELMORE : I ' m just commenting because I ' m
23 a Board member and I get to do that .
24 MALE SPEAKER: Cliff, can I point you all
25 onto your grounds for approval? That ' s where
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1 you ' re going to have to --
2 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay .
3 MALE SPEAKER: So if you ' re looking for a way
4 to approve or deny, you want to look at those or
5 --
6 MR. ELMORE : Okay. If you want to put that
7 slide back up, you can .
8 FEMALE SPEAKER: So -- may I speak?
9 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes , ma ' am.
10 FEMALE SPEAKER: We do that on the required
11 action sheet, page 4 of 4 , No . 3 , exceptional
12 circumstances preventing the reasonable use of a
13 property. And I think that ' s what everybody
14 ( inaudible ) tonight, is that there are exceptional
15 circumstances that have prevented Dr . Doward from
16 reasonable use of his own property .
17 And then No . 5 of not granting a variance, it
18 would be that these -- that it does not enhance or
19 go along with the aesthetic environment of the
20 community. But I think it does go along with it .
21 It is very similar to the one side by side and the
22 two on the outside of that . The immediately
23 southern property and northern property both have
24 lap siding . So he is really more consistent in
25 the neighborhood than anybody else and he has very
61
1 similar .
2 And I agree with you on the substantial
3 thing, that that was hard, it does make it our
4 opinion . When you say substantially, it is not a
5 cut-and-dried thing, but I think if you look at
6 No . 3, we have justification to justify this
7 variance . So I would like to move .
8 So I would like to move that we recommend to
9 the city commission --
10 MALE SPEAKER: So this is final variance .
11 FEMALE SPEAKER : Oh, this is final . I would
12 like to -- what ' s the word I want? To give a
13 variance .
14 MALE SPEAKER: Grant the variance of the
15 property .
16 FEMALE SPEAKER: Grant the variance in case
17 No . 15 VZAR dash 1035 to allow Dr . Doward to
18 continue with the lap siding and the current --
19 consistent with the current drawing, the current
20 plans that have been presented to us for this
21 meeting .
22 MALE SPEAKER : And that would be Exhibit A
23 right here?
24 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes , that would be Exhibit
25 A.
62
1 MALE SPEAKER: This is the second one because
2 there ' s two of them.
3 FEMALE SPEAKER: ( Inaudible . )
4 MALE SPEAKER: This is the second.
5 FEMALE SPEAKER: And 1 and 3 are consistent .
6 No . 2 has two different colored garage doors .
7 MALE SPEAKER: That ' s why I wanted to make
8 that everybody is on the same page .
9 FEMALE SPEAKER: ( Inaudible ) these are the
10 ones that I would go with .
11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay . So it ' s not this one .
12 MALE SPEAKER: ( Inaudible ) . Right?
13 FEMALE SPEAKER: And I ' d like to second the
14 motion .
15 MS . PAUL : So we have a motion and a second .
16 All in favor .
17 SPEAKERS : Aye .
18 FEMALE SPEAKER: All opposed?
19 MALE SPEAKER: Aye .
20 FEMALE SPEAKER: Nay. All right .
21 MR. ELMORE : Are you a nay, Brea, or --
22 MS . PAUL : I am a nay .
23 MR. ELMORE : Okay.
24 MS . PAUL : And you are a nay .
25 MR. ELMORE : Okay. So three-two carry .
63
1 Okay .
2 MS . PAUL : All right .
3 (Applause . )
4 MS . PAUL : All right . Okay. If you could
5 please maintain order . We have the rest of our
6 agenda to work our way through .
7 (Conclusion of Agenda Item No . 3 . )
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1 I, Faye Gay, was authorized to and did transcribe
2 the foregoing proceedings and the transcript is a
3 true and complete record of the recording, subject
4 to the quality of the recording, to the best of my
5 ability .
6 DATED this 24th day of September, 2015 .
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12 /S/ FAYE M. GAY, Transcriber
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