5-24-23 CRC Adopted MinutesATTENDANCE:
Present:
Absent:
Also Present:
MINUTES
Charter Review Committee Meeting
Wednesday, May 24, 2023 - 6:00 PM
Commission Chamber
Bruce Andrews, Member
Debbie Buckland, Member
Kelly Elmore, Member
Ellen Golombek, Member
William "Bill" Gulliford, Chair
Kirk Hansen, Member
Mitchell Reeves, Member
Suzanne Shaughnessy, Vice Chair
Jennifer Lagner, Secretary
Dawn Scott, Member
Steve Swann, Member
Donald Young, Member
Charles "Chip" Drysdale, Member
Donna Bartle, City Clerk (CC)
CALL TO ORDER AND ROLL CALL
Chair Gulliford called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m.
1. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
A. Approve minutes of the April 26, 2023 Charter Review Committee meeting.
MOTION. Approve minutes of the April 26, 2023 Charter Review Committee meeting with
the change on page 7, where it states "Member Shaughnessy", should say "Vice Chair Suzanne
Shaughnessy".
Motion: Jennifer Lagner
Second. Kelly Elmore
Bruce Andrews
For
Debbie Buckland
For
Kelly Elmore (Seconded By)
For
Ellen Golombek
For
William "Bill" Gulliford
For
Kirk Hansen
For
Mitchell Reeves
For
Suzanne Shaughnessy
For
Charter Review Committee
May 24, 2023
Jennifer Lagner (Moved By)
For
Dawn Scott
For
Steve Swann
For
Donald Young
For
Motion passed 12 to 0.
Secretary Lagner called the roll.
2. PUBLIC COMMENT
Chairman Bill Gulliford explained the process for public comment and opened the Courtesy of
the Floor to Visitors.
Secretary Jennifer Lagner called each speaker to the microphone.
Ellen Glasser, Atlantic Beach, stated she wanted to explain the three documents she sent the
Charter Review Committee prior to the meeting in that they related to Sec. 5 and Sec. 8 of the
City Charter. Regarding Sec. 5, Ms. Glasser referred to the referendum on the 2020 ballot that
was put forth to voters to change the mayor term to four years, which was voted down. She
stated she is supportive of a four-year term for the mayor; it is important for CRC to hear how
this impacts the city. The pro for the two-year term in her opinion is limit of control, the
complexion of the commission can flip every two years. The pro for the four-year term is the
relationship with Jacksonville, the interlocal agreement, and other long-term concerns like
resiliency. Strategic planning is critical and hard to advance if a two-year mayor, especially if
serving one term; the city loses time. Ms. Glasser stated Atlantic Beach is the only local elected
position in Duval County with the two-year term; the mayor is campaigning every other year,
elections can be close, many are confused as to who the mayor is and can see more partisanship
in a non-partisan governance. Longer term could lead to stronger relationships and confidence
with less disruption. Regarding Sec. 7, she referred to the summary sent to CRC with what
commissioners and mayors are paid throughout the state. Ms. Glasser continued elected officials
aren't hesitant to recommend pay raises, many times to staff. Selfless work pays very little and
while rewarding it is often thankless.
Michael Hoffmann, Atlantic Beach, shared he sent the CRC an email with some documents
and referred to the OpEd he sent and what vote dilution is. He continued if anyone had any
questions, they were welcome to email him to arrange a time to speak or provide correction. He
stated he wanted to correct a citation he made regarding the two-page document sent which was
a history of Atlantic Beach government. He was attempting to puncture the myth that having
one seat for 1312 is depriving the east side from serving government. Paul Parson did not serve
as mayor and is correcting that. Mr. Hoffinann recounted some history with the flyover, the
noise from 70 feet up 24/7 and turned the neighborhood into an urban neighborhood. He
continued that his point is there is no reason why a seat should not be reserved for the west side
of town.
Chairman Bill Gulliford opined he had not heard of the flyover when he was in office and
concurred with Mr. Hoffmann.
Charter Review Committee
May 24, 2023
Jack Rowan, Jacksonville, said his interest in Sec. 6 was only the time talking about removal is
for wrongdoing when charged with felony and suggested might be useful but an option to
remove a member for a misdemeanor due to the serious types of misdemeanors. He shared
regarding Sec. 8, he considers an appropriate place to discuss more about the mayor pro tem, it
is discussed at end of Sec. 8 and near the end of Sec. 9, subpart 13; he felt it useful if moved to
have one section that discussed mayor and mayor pro tem so it flows better. Mr. Rowan further
stated he wanted to include, in part of Sec. 9, about commission being able to set rules of
procedures. He noticed there is already a section in Sec. 16 and for the sake of the reader, moving
it to Sec. 9 makes more sense, allows Sec. 16 to be more so focused on minutes being open to
the public and not having two things shoved together.
Stephen Fouraker, Atlantic Beach,was inquiring about the closing out of Sec. 5 and most
people he spoke with are fine with the two-year term for mayor and four-year term for
commissioners. He opined it's a good thing to flip the government, we have a good thing going.
Carolyn Zisser, Atlantic Beach, stated the mayor term is not on the agenda, and she did not see
them in the minutes of the last meeting and should be a closed issue. She requested the CRC
bring up and notice the mayor term because she feels it will be an issue where there are a lot of
opinions in support of keeping the two-year term. The agenda is to give everyone notice that an
issue is coming up and if it had been on agenda, she thought there would be a packed audience.
Chairman Bill Gulliford communicated the CRC would notice the recommended Charter
changes to be presented to the Commission so that public comment could be heard prior to
recommendation submission.
3. MISCELLANEOUS BUSINESS
A. ARTICLE II. - THE COMMISSION, Sec. 6. - Qualifications and disqualifications;
Sec. 7. - Salary; Sec. 8. - Presiding officer: Mayor; and other applicable sections of
the Charter.
Sec. 6. — Qualifications and disqualifications
Member Mitch Reeves spoke of residency requirement of two years to run for office and
questioned if the commission has the right to set an ordinance as to what the guidelines
are and how it can be investigated. He shared a situation during his term when a former
commissioner did not meet the residency requirement; the city has no function of
enforcing the residence requirement. He continued the charter is only as good as the
enforcement of it and questioned how to enforce, and questioned if additional proof such
as a tax record or water bill could suffice. Member Debbie Buckland asked for
clarification as to how it was not enforceable. Member Mitch Reeves stated during the
incident he spoke of, no one knew how to enforce.
Member Ellen Golombek asked what the legal definition was of "principal place of
abode." One can own property but not live in Atlantic Beach; it seems ambiguous.
Secretary Jennifer Lagner to ask City Attorney Jason Gabriel to provide an answer and
attend the June meeting.
Member Suzanne Shaughnessy provided an example that someone could own a property,
pay the property tax, rent it out, pay the water bills and it could look like they resided
Charter Review Committee
May 24, 2023
there. Supported requesting City Attorney to opine on the "principal place of abode" and
offer a solution.
Member Kelly Elmore stated he thought a two-year residency was not sufficient and
would support a change to three- or four-year residency which would be beneficial
before being put in a position of voting on city budget and other commission
responsibilities.
MOTION: To extend residency requirement (from two years) to three years, minimum, in order
to run for City Commission.
Motion: Kelly Elmore
Second. Suzanne Shaughnessy
Member Steve Swann said he supports a four-year residency; Member Kelly Elmore was
supportive of three or four. Member Kelly Elmore amended his motion to extend residence from
two years to four years.
No vote taken on this motion.
MOTION. Amended Motion: To extend residency requirement (from two years) to four years.
Motion: Kelly Elmore
Second. Suzanne Shaughnessy
Member Bruce Andrews concurred with four years for residency. Member Donald Young
explained he was countering the four years for a few reasons. One was "group think"; if someone
has been in Atlantic Beach for 20 to 30 years, they may think a certain way and not have new
ideas or be open to new ideas. The other is if someone can figure out a way to get onto the
commission with only two years, that is good. When you come from different cities, you see
things done differently, you have new ideas; he would support two years.
Member Debbie Buckland agreed with Member Donald Young, and continued she agreed in
context with what Ellen Glasser stated regarding the amount the city gets back from the
interlocal agreement, and strategic planning. She continued limiting the pool of leadership is not
a good thing and is inclined to agree with the four-year residency.
Further discussion ensued in support of the four-year residency, with support from Member
Steve Swann and Member Ellen Golombek.
Ellen Glasser was permitted to speak. She shared Sec. 5 is silent on residency within the district;
is there any mechanism to confirm district residency, and who does that due to past concerns.
Carolyn Zisser was permitted to speak. She implored the CRC to not make a change because the
language says, "at least two years"; you would eliminate the pool and "if it ain't broke, don't fix
it".
Charter Review Committee
May 24, 2023
Jack Rowan was permitted to speak. He shared there was a case of residency lawsuit filed in
Jacksonville, but the candidate lost so the case was mooted. There are ways to determine
residency. COJ residency is 183 days in the district, so he felt two years was safe and not
supportive of four years.
Member Kirk Hansen supported more stability due to his experience on the Community
Development Board. Member Mitch Reeves was in agreement with Member Kelly Elmore that
residency requirement should be four years. Member Kelly Elmore stated the application should
be clear with where one's true residence. Member Bruce Andrews clarified the motion was for
four years. Secretary Lagner stated she is supportive of four years. Vice Chair Suzanne
Shaughnessy felt more years in the city was appropriate. Chair Bill Gulliford shared during his
time appointing people to committees, those who did well were those with more institutional
knowledge and the four years were appropriate.
Bruce Andrews
For
Debbie Buckland
For
Kelly Elmore (Moved By)
For
Ellen Golombek
For
William "Bill" Gulliford
For
Kirk Hansen
For
Mitchell Reeves
For
Suzanne Shaughnessy (Seconded Bi,)
For
Jennifer Lagner
For
Dawn Scott
For
Steve Swann
For
Donald Young
For
Motion passed unanimously 12 to 0.
Member Bruce Andrews asked what is the definition of "full-time residency". Secretary Jennifer
Lagner to ask City Attorney Jason Gabriel to answer. Member Bruce Andrews stated it is not
okay if someone is convicted; Member Kirk Hansen stated if one is found guilty, then they are
to be removed from the position.
Jack Rowan was permitted to speak. He stated he felt it was okay to temporarily suspend if
charged; it had happened in Jacksonville.
Member Ellen Golombek shared she would vote for four years and continuous residency.
Member Donald Young concurred. Member Dawn Scott stated Ellen Glasser made a good point
regarding continuous residency and amended the motion to include "continuous".
MOTION: Amend Motion to include "continuous" years. (To extend residency requirement
from two years to four continuous years.)
Motion: Dawn Scott
Second: Mitchell Reeves
Charter Review Committee
May 24, 2023
City Clerk Donna Bartle, who is also the filing officer, read the 1 st line of the section which
states "Members of the city commission shall have been full-time residents of the city for at least
two years immediately prior to qualifying" and as the one who qualifies the electors, she has
always interpreted it as continuous before qualifying.
Carolyn Zisser referred to the residency requirement in the Florida divorce code, being a resident
of Florida for six months next. This is synonymous with continuous.
Discussion ensued about whether the word "continuous" is needed.
Member Dawn Scott withdrew her motion; Member Mitch Reeves seconded the withdrawal.
Motion withdrawn.
Secretary Jennifer Lagner would send question regarding "continuous" to City Attorney Jason
Gabriel.
Sec. 7. - Salary
Member Mitch Reeves stated the salary should be left alone and have it changed by ordinance.
Member Dawn Scott stated to show respect for what the commissioners do, they need a pay
raise to bring in a better pool of candidates with fresh ideas who have families, children and this
could be an economic issue. The increase in pay could help them do things they may not be able
to do. Member Mitch Reeves countered the point that any dollar increase would not change their
cost of living; most run to serve community.
Chairman Bill Gulliford opined the state sets the pay for county commissioners and that the
salary could be tied to that. Member Donald Young shared he is empathetic to what Member
Dawn Scott stated, but he is not in favor of creating career politicians. Member Dawn Scott
replied that even if current salary was doubled, it would not make a significant difference.
Member Debbie Buckland asked for point of clarification if pay is set by ordinance, is this an
irrelevant discussion or to set definitions. Vice Chair Suzanne Shaughnessy spoke in favor of
leaving this section the way it is, noting it is not about having the financial motivation to serve.
Member Dawn Scott countered this could be the freedom to have people run and referenced a
current commissioner who has to hire a babysitter for each meeting and the salary is eaten up
accordingly.
Ellen Glasser was permitted to speak. She shared she felt the section was fine the way it is but
an acknowledgement about the Commission being underpaid would be good.
Member Mitch Reeves shared that people should speak with commission regarding salary
increases and how they feel and he thought Jacksonville Beach provided health care to their
commissioners and a spending allowance.
Charter Review Committee
May 24, 2023
Michael Hoffmann was permitted to speak. He stated he agreed with Member Dawn Scott.
Those with modest means may want to serve but cannot. We should give a broader group of
people the opportunity to serve.
Carolyn Zisser was permitted to speak. She agreed with Member Dawn Scott but by leaving by
ordinance it puts the commission in a more difficult position voting themselves a pay raise. Likes
the idea of an objective measure as to what county commissioners are paid and section amended.
Chairman Gulliford stated Sec. 6 would remain open because we need information from City
Attorney Jason Gabriel and shared with Member Dawn Scott that if she wanted to pursue this,
we would need a motion and formula.
Member Steve Swann noted the opportunity for the Commission to raise the salary for the next
commission. Member Kelly Elmore stated it would be beneficial to have some language and
mechanism in place. Member Bruce Andrews stated the information Ellen Glasser sent was
helpful, we are low for our city. Chair Bill Gulliford spoke about the reality and challenges that
come with elected officials voting on raises for themselves. Member Donald Young stated he
could support a change as long as not creating career politicians.
Chairman Gulliford noted Secs. 6 & 7 will be left open. There was a brief discussion about the
process for recommending changes for the ballot.
Jack Rowan was permitted to speak. He shared at the Jacksonville City Council, he believes
they are offered an increase each year and they elect to take it.
Chairman Bill Gulliford stated Member Dawn Scott would propose something at the next CRC
meeting and it is permissible to have a public meeting. He shared Member Dawn Scott would
have access to the City Attorney as a resource.
Member Debbie Buckland stated the final lens for the body of work should be for us to move
ahead as a city; some things are really important such as inclusivity and opportunity to
participate. We have other places where we are talking about salaries, maybe we address at that
point.
With no further discussion regarding Sec. 7, Member Donald Young distributed and spoke about
a handout he prepared relating to Sec. 5 (which is attached hereto and made part of this Official
Record as ATTACHMENT A).
Carolyn Zisser was permitted to speak. She stated she formally objecting to any discussion
regarding term of the mayor until it is publicly noticed.
05-24-23 CRC ATTACHMENT A
MOTION: Move the term from two -years to four -years for mayor.
Motion: Donald Young
Motion died due to lack of a second.
Charter Review Committee
May 24, 2023
Member Donald Young requested that his handout be added to the minutes.
With no further discussion regarding Sec. 6 or Sec. 7, discussion on Sec. 8 commenced.
Sec. 8. — Presiding Officer: Mayor
Member Bruce Andrews wanted clarity regarding administrative duties, part of the job.
Chairman Bill Gulliford communicated Interim City Manager Joe Gerrity was unable to attend this
evening's meeting but would be at the June meeting and could share information regarding city
manager form of government. There was a brief discussion about the interlocal agreement.
Ellen Glasser was permitted to speak. She stated that Sec. 8 has archaic language with references to
what the mayor -commissioner is authorized to do related to emergency management. The position
should have a more expanded role for the mayor which would be specifically remedied with a clause
that talks about other purposes under Florida Statutes 252 and Code of Ordinances related to emergency
management. The interlocal agreement is legislative and would be handled accordingly.
Chairman Bill Gulliford stated the day to day is left to the city manager, limited by the structure of
government.
Member Debbie Buckland spoke regarding general mayor authority and appointment of committees.
General discussion ensued that commission may be better suited to seat committees and boards due to
their knowledge of area and committees.
B. June meeting topics
ARTICLE II. — THE COMMISSION Sec. 6. - Qualifications and disqualifications; Sec. 7. —
Salary; Sec. 9. — Powers; Sec. 10. — Appointment of city manager; and other applicable sections
of the Charter.
C. June meeting city staff attendance requests
Interim City Manager Joe Gerrity and City Attorney Jason Gabriel to be in attendance.
4. ADJOURNMENT
There being no further discussion, Chair Gulli
Date Approved: JAX
declared th�77.
urned at 8 p.m.
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CharterReview Committee
May 24, 2023