04-05-99 vMINUTES OF THE WORKSHOP MEETING OF ATLANTIC BEACH CITY COMMISSION
HELD IN COMMISSION CHAMBERS AT 5:00 PM ON MONDAY, April 5, 1999
Present were: Suzanne Shaughnessy, Mayor
Mike Borno, City Commissioner
John Meserve, City Commissioner
Theo Mitchelson, City Commissioner
Absent: Richard Beaver, City Commissioner
Stormwater Review Committee Members Present were:
Bob Kosoy
Stephen Kuti
J.P. Marchioli
Donald Phillips
Albert Rabassa
Sylvia Simmons
Lyman Fletcher
Also:David Thompson, City Manager
Nelson VanLiere, Finance Director
Donna Kaluzniak, Asst. Public Works Director
Maureen King, City Clerk
The meeting was held for the purpose of discussing the preliminary design report prepared by R-A-M
Professional Group for design modifications to the proposed utility improvements, and stormwater
collection and tide water control improvements.
The meeting was called to order by Mayor Shaughnessy who invited Commissioners to present any
comments or questions they may have.
Commissioner Mitchelson said that based on the previous workshop, his biggest question was how
to pay for the project.
Mayor Shaughnessy asked whether some of the additional drainage from north of the old city area
could be put into Sherman Creek, i.e. could you more accurately divide the surface run-off into two
holding basins.
Dr. Marshall responded that when Oceanwalk and the area south of it floods, the runoff already goes
to Sherman Creek. He said he was trying to get some additional storage away from the old city area
and add that to the existing storage in Selva Marina lagoon. He said he had run additional models
since the previous meeting and based on very preliminary sensitivity analysis he felt the culvert size
could be reduced to almost half the proposed size which would make it easier to snake the pipe
through some areas. However, this information was very preliminary at this stage.
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Minutes - Commission Workshop
April 5, 1999
City Manager Thompson said that he and Finance director VanLiere had been examining the funding
available for the project and reported that the 1998/99 projected budget had approximately $6 million
from bond money for water/sewer/paving, etc. In addition $3.15 million was identified for the
1999/2000 budget, making a total of$9,162,299 in one-time money. In addition $1.2 million was
available in general fund reserves in excess of the 25% contingency. The City Manager also pointed
out that the projected cost for installation of water and sewer lines on Sherry Drive was estimated
to be approximately $440,000 (Jacksonville will pay the cost of paving).
The City Manager also pointed out various other items which had previously been authorized by the
City Commission such as a lake in Johansen Park, and installation of curb and gutter. The matter of
assessing property owners for at least part of the cost of curb and gutter had been considered, but
could be eliminated, based on the actual bid price. The City Manager also felt that the 10 year, 24-
hour project was an upgrade from the original design; however, the Mayor pointed out that the
project was included in 1995 in projects to be considered for funding. The City Manager also pointed
out that maintenance of the system needed to be considered, whether it would be undertaken by city
crews or contracted out. He cautioned the City Commission against long term commitments of gas
tax funds as this meant there would be no funds for other projects. He felt that curb and gutter
benefitted only the neighborhoods receiving the curb and gutters and was opposed to raising taxes
or utility rates to pay for this; however, he felt that stormwater fees could be raised to $5.00, which
would generate approximately $160,000 annually.
The Mayor said she felt the estimated project cost of$13 million was just an asking price and she
wanted to make some cost reductions. City Manager Thompson agreed and said that the staff
recommendation would be for R-A-M to reconfigure the design to bring it within budget.
Commissioner Meserve inquired into the feasibility of breaking the project into two phases, the tail
water/Sherman Creek area and the old city area. He felt the city could not afford $13 million and
felt it would be more prudent to plan for a smaller storm. The objective, he felt, was to solve the
drainage problems 95% of the time and to get the water out of back yards and into the drainage
system, and to accept the fact that it is impossible to alleviate all flooding.
The Mayor agreed and felt the objective should be to solve "nuisance flooding" and also address
maintenance issues. She inquired regarding the extent of savings that could be expected by reducing
the project to a 5-year storm capacity.
Discussion ensued and Dr. Marshall indicated that the Howell Park by-pass and Sherman Creek
reconnect were very important components of the project. He said that it would lower the cost of
the project considerably to reduce the system to a 5-year storm capacity. Commissioner Meserve
inquired whether much relief would be felt if the project was done in the old city area and nothing
was done down stream, and Dr. Marshall felt that without the downstream improvements, the water
would not flow out and benefits would not be felt upstream.
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Minutes - Commission Workshop
April 5, 1999
Commissioner Meserve inquired whether the land which would be used for the Sherman Creek flood
plain could be filled in by a future developer, thus eliminating the stormwater storage area and Dr.
Marshall indicated that protection of that flood plain would be looked at favorably by the St. Johns
River Water Management District.
Commissioner Borno noted that the RFP required that the elevation in Selva Marina Lagoon not
exceed 3.5 feet and inquired into the effects of raising the level to 4.0, 4.5 or even 5.0 feet. He felt
the engineers needed to find ways to scale the project back. Following discussion Commissioner
Bomo listed the following areas which he felt should be looked into to determine if cost savings could
be realized: any relief by-pass piping considerations and any culvert that we are looking at replacing;
adjustment of the acceptable level of Selva Marina Lagoon, consideration of what could be done
within the golf course to alleviate flooding in other areas;the connection into Sherman Creek and also
see if piping could be installed to allow water to flow into Hanna Park Lake. He suggested that
dialogue be opened with Jacksonville if the Hanna Park Lake seemed to offer a viable solution. He
felt the city should still focus on a 10-year storm.
Dr. Marshall indicated that Mr. Kuti had suggested the possibility of pumping 5th Street and 7th
Street flows only instead of gravity flow to by-pass Howell Park. He felt this might be worth looking
into. It was also suggested that instead of fully automated flood gates, manually operated flood gates
be considered.
Commissioner Mitchelson agreed with Commissioner Borno that the city should use the ten-year-
storm standard. He felt that the ETM design provided storage within the pipes for a 2-year storm
so the design actually provided for greater than a 2-year storm. He inquired whether RAM had an
estimate of the cost of ribbon curb, Mr. Reed of R-A-M said that while there would be cost savings
compared to the cost of Miami curb, they had not done an actual cost estimate.
Mayor Shaughnessy said that she had asked for a"smorgasbord" of options so that various options
could be added or deleted as the City Commission desired. She noted that ETM had estimated $1.2
million,plus contingency, the amount of the savings estimated by RAM by substituting ribbon curb
225,000), then the difference would be the cost of the ribbon curb.
Commissioner Mitchelson inquired what would be lost by eliminating the ribbon curb and it was
explained that the ribbon curb would prevent water from running onto low lying lots. Also ribbon
curb would also protect the edge of the road, thus saving maintenance costs.
The Mayor asked for clarification regarding the level of the ribbon curb. Mr. Gray responded that
in the areas to the east of the numbered streets, the ribbon curb section would be flush with the
roadway, with the exception of the areas where there were inlets. Also, in areas closer to Sherry
Drive where low lying yards experience flooding, RAM would propose to install a roll curb which
would be higher than the roadway.
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Minutes - Commission Workshop
April 5, 1999
Commissioner Mitchelson inquired what type of event the new system would accommodate if
Sherman Creek was not reconnected. Dr. Marshall responded that when he saw that there was a
benefit to opening Sherman Creek, he had not run additional models; however, he felt that without
Sherman Creek,the level of Selva Marina Lagoon would be high and would flood the golf course and
run back into the city. Commissioner Mitchelson inquired whether the project could be phased and
whether RAM would make suggestions regarding the order of phasing. Dr. Marshall responded that
the Howell Park by-pass would provide the most benefit; then, if the 11th Street causeway needed
to be opened that should probably be done next; followed by the Sherman Creek reconnection. Dr.
Marshall also reported that State Revolving Loan funds were available at 3% for 20 years, to small
communities for stormwater improvements.
In further discussion Commissioner Meserve felt that if the city could not afford to do the entire
project it should not be phased. He preferred instead to scale the project back to fit the budget,
without using general fund reserves; move ahead with the project and get the water flowing out of
back yards, and use some kind of curbs.
III The Mayor said she felt that curb and gutter was a roadway improvement, not a drainage
improvement and noted that the original ETM design did not include curb and gutter. She felt it
increased the cost of the project and did not have anything to do with drainage. She indicated she
would like to be able to eliminate the curb and save $1 million. She also provided pictures of
different alternatives including streets with inverted crowns and said she would like to know how
much inverted crown roads would cost.
Commissioner Meserve and City Manager Thompson left the meeting at this time (6:48 PM).
Further discussion ensued and various matters were discussed such as consideration of inverted
crowns, eliminating curbs, street sweeping and maintenance issues, following which the Mayor
indicated the city commission was willing to go to extraordinary measures not to destroy the charm
of the city and make it look like a PUD. She felt it was not necessary to have curb and gutters, etc.
if positive drainage could be achieved without them. Also, she said she would not raise taxes to pay
for the project; she felt it was a rate payer issue, not a tax payer issue.
The Mayor then called a recess to allow the RAM team to confer regarding the amount of time they
felt they would require to make cuts and address the comments made this evening and come back
with an amended plan.
The meeting reconvened at 7:30 and Mr. Reed summarized the scope of the task he felt RAM was
being asked to perform - to come back to the City Commission in as short a period as possible with
a recommendation for what system should be installed for$9 million or less, and which would address
both tail water and the old city improvements. He indicated the RAM team would need thirty days
to complete the task. The Mayor also asked for cost estimates for inverted crowns, curbs, etc., and
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Minutes - Commission Workshop
April 5, 1999
as many of the smorgasbord items as possible. Dr. Marshall requested that RAM not be required to
attend any meetings during this period in order that they could focus on the task. The Mayor felt
that this would leave the Stormwater Review Committee out of the process and indicated she would
get back with Mr. Reed the following day in this regard. In discussion regarding the scope of this
task,the Mayor said that anything which was requested in the original RFP should be included in this
task and Mr. Reed indicated he felt RAM had already completed the task as outlined in Phase 1 A of
the RFP. Mayor Shaughnessy, however, said that RAM still owed her a list of the broken out costs
which she had requested on the night when RAM was selected. Mr. Reed cautioned that different
systems would have different maintenance requirements and they had not costed those items. The
Mayor, however, indicated that the upstream management would be developed separately and was
not a part of the RAM charge. Following further discussion it was agreed that RAM would submit
a preliminary written report and a short presentation(without visual aids) on Monday, April 26, 1999,
with a complete report a week later.
At this time, the Mayor invited comments from the audience:
Albert Rabassa, 1820 Live Oak Lane, noted that the City had hired ETM, then Terry Rice, and then
RAM. He said he agreed with Commissioner Meserve that the project should not be broken up into
phases. He said he doubted that RAM would redesign the project for their current contract price of
120,000. Mayor Shaughnessy advised that the RAM contract was split into two phases -the"look-
see"phase, and the design phase and pointed out that the design phase had not yet been negotiated.
Lee Wintrove, 1540 Selva Marina Drive, asked if pipes would be installed in Selva Marina Drive in
connection with this project. The Mayor summarized the three options which had been suggested
for reconnecting to Sherman Creek and advised that the option to connect at Sevilla Gardens was
taken off the table. Mr. Wintrove said that the lagoon appeared to be about three feet shallower than
it was some years ago and suggested dredging the lagoon.
Stephen Kuti, 1132 Linkside Drive, referenced a letter dated December 8, 1998, from Dr. Marshall
to Mr. Reed,which indicated that the modeling must be verified if it could not be formally calibrated.
He said the models used by Dr. Marshall were no good because they not verified because they were
not calibrated, and asked how far the figures could be off. Commissioner Borno reference a section
of the RAM report which indicated that the City of Jacksonville and Camp, Dresser& McKee had
provided Stormwater Management Model (SWMM) data to RAM. (See Page I1-6 of the RAM
report).
Don Phillips, 1566 Park Terrace West, said he had problems with the elevations which resulted from
the calibrations. Also he said he did not know how a 10,000 cubic feet per second (cfs) pump was
arrived at. He said he and two other engineers had done some calculations and they felt the largest
pump which would be required, even for a 100 year storm, would be 427 cfs. He said that while he
had supported a pumping system, he was more interested in a solution. Mr. Phillips felt there
41) Page Six
Minutes - Commission Workshop
April 5, 1999
were eight drainage basins in the project and while there was some interconnectivity, he saw no
reason why they could not be designed as separate projects.
Dr. Marshall reported that he had responded to the Stormwater Review Committee's comments,
including one question regarding the calibration/verification of the model, and explained in some
detail the data and methods he had used. He also explained his experience in coastal systems
engineering. He volunteered to make his modeling files available for inspection by anyone interested
in doing so. He also explained how he had arrived at his recommendation for a 10,000 cfs pump.
Kay Friedmann, 1898 Selva Marina Drive, suggested that a study be undertaken to determine the
impact that opening Sherman Creek would have on the homes in the Sevilla Gardens and SeIva
Marina area. The Mayor indicated that to do otherwise the city would be trading one set of problems
for another.
Mayor Shaughnessy inquired whether the exfiltration portion of the project could be done and then
see what impact has been made;then open Sherman Creek and see what impact has been made, etc.
0 Dr. Marshall responded that the exfiltration system would reduce the pipe sizes, but would provide
the least amount of reduction in the Selva Marina Lagoon of all the alternatives suggested.
The Mayor asked if exfiltration was one of the components which may be taken out of the project
for cost saving purposes. Dr. Marshall said that this was considered since the least benefit seemed
to be gained from the exfiltration component; however, it would have to be compared to the other
alternatives and the modeling before he could say if this component should be deleted.
Public Works Director Kosoy said the St. Johns River Water Management District (SJRWMD) had
indicated some time ago that they would have to have a complete project to show where the
treatment credits would be and they would not consider portions of the project separately. Dr.
Marshall said that there was a conceptual approval process available which would allow the
SJRWMD to grant conceptual approval of the overall project and then they would permit the
individual parts. The Mayor inquired regarding"team permitting"where all the agencies got together
and considered the project together. Dr. Marshall said he was not familiar with this procedure.
Greg Powell,Ph.D.,P.E., 1871 Selva Marina Drive, agreed with Dr. Marshall but said there was no
substitute for good geometric data and inquired how much survey data was available for the Sherman
Creek area. He said he would like to look at Dr. Marshall's input and output data files and Dr.
Marshall indicated he would e-mail this information the following day.
There being no further discussion, the meeting was adjourned at 8:40 PM.
Maureen King
Certified Municipal Clerk