11-21-18 CDB Meeting TranscriptCITY OF ATLANTIC BEACH
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT BOARD
MEETING
Excerpt of videotaped proceedings held
on Tuesday, November 21, 2017, commencing at
approximately 6:55p.m., at City Hall, Commission
Chambers, 800 Seminole Road, Atlantic Beach,
Florida.
BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:
A. BREA PAUL, Chairwoman.
LINDA LANIER, Board Member.
KELLY ELMORE, Board Member.
PATRICK STRATTON, Board Member.
SYLVIA SIMMONS, Board Member.
ALSO PRESENT:
BRENNA DURDEN, City Attorney.
DEREK REEVES, Interim Development Director.
BRIAN BROEDELL, City Planner.
VALERIE JONES, Administrative Assistant.
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P R 0 C E E D I N G S
November 21, 2017 6:55 p.m.
* * * * *
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Our next agenda item is
Item 4B, ZVAR17-0010, and I will turn it over
to staff.
MR. BROEDELL: Good evening, board.
So good news, this is not in a PUD.
So this is a variance to allow a 6-foot
fence in the front yard at 1505 Selva Marina
Drive. This property is in the RS-L, large lot
zoning district. Future land use, Residential
Low Density. And it is a corner lot that
fronts both Selva Marina Drive and Seminole
Road.
And the City code defines corner lots as
abutting two or more streets, and then it goes
on to explain that the exterior lot line of the
narrowest side of the lot adjoining the street
shall be considered the front of the lot. So,
with that, that makes the southern property
line that fronts --or abuts Seminole Road the
front of this property by code.
So the proposed plan is to install a
6-foot-tall wood fence to run along this
southern front property line (indicating),
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before it kind of makes a turn and then runs
back to the house.
So the need for a variance is Section
24-157, within required front yards the maximum
height of any fence shall be 4 feet; and then
within required side or rear yards, the maximum
height of any fence shall be 6 feet.
So as I stated with --how the City code
defines the front yard for corner lots, this
6-foot fence would be --is in their required
front yard.
So the proposed fence along this southern
property line would be over 30 feet from the
pavement of Seminole Road. And as you can see
from this aerial, the property is a good
distance away from the intersection of Selva
Marina and Seminole Road. So sight line issues
are pretty minimal.
Continuing with that, the --if you can
see that hedge in these three pictures, the
hedge is on right-of-way, City property, so the
majority of this proposed fence would be placed
behind that hedge, before it comes out a little
bit more and then runs back to the house. So,
again, minimizing sight line issues even more.
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Any questions?
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.)
I think I read that what they're proposing
lS right on the property line; is that correct?
MR. BROEDELL: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.)
Another question, how many (inaudible) are
there between the sidewalk and the property
line of the proposed fence?
MR. BROEDELL: That, I don't know.
Based on just kind of eyeing it, while I
was out there, it's probably about 5 feet, but
that's --that's really just based on walking
out there. It doesn't say on the survey or
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I can comment on
that. Again, it's my 'hood.
That's a really mature ligustrum hedge. I
believe it's ligustrum, maybe viburnum. And I
remember when that was planted. And it's
gotten really mature and it's --it really is
right --it's very close to the sidewalk. And
so if it's on the City right-of-way, then I
would guess this proposed fence would be back
about 5 feet from the sidewalk, possibly?
MR. BROEDELL: Yeah.
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It would definitely --I'm not exactly
sure where the property line is behind that
hedge. I know it's, obviously, behind the
hedge. And, again, based on just going out
there, it looks like it would be at least
5 feet from the sidewalk.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: And the City did not
plant that hedge, correct, or do you know? My
guess is not.
MR. BROEDELL: Yeah, I'm not sure.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Do you guys have any
additional questions for staff?
BOARD MEMBERS: (No response.)
THE CHAIRWOMAN: No. All right.
Thank you.
MR. BROEDELL: Uh-huh.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: All right. If the
applicant is here and would like to make a
statement.
(Audience member approaches the podium.)
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi.
I'm Lori Gaglione. I live at 1505 Selva
Marina Drive.
So, as he stated, my property is unusually
configured because the the home is built
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facing Selva Marina Drive. Our address is
Selva Marina Drive. Our door opens to
Selva Marina Drive. Our driveways are on
Selva Marina Drive.
And it was unbeknownst to me --Seminole
Road's considered our front yard. So when we
had all these plans drawn up to do the fence, I
had no idea. And so, of course, when the
permit was denied, I was told we needed to get
the variance.
Okay. So the plan is to come ln right
behind the hedge so that --and I brought a
picture of another property at the beach that's
got a similar sort of configuration with a
fence inside of a hedge line, which is --and
this is kind of the style fence that we're
proposing (indicating).
And I submitted a bunch of pictures with
my --I don't know if you guys all got that.
I -
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, we did.
MS. GAGLIONE: Okay.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: There were a variety of
pictures sent in our packet.
MS. GAGLIONE: Yeah. I was trying to sort
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of maybe--the whole gist of what we're trying
to do, and --and the reason for fencing off
the backyard is we have young children. We're
trying to make a backyard because right now,
you know, it's just kind of an open property.
Everybody on Seminole Road can see into our
backyard. You can see in from the front. You
can see along the sides. So we're trying to
just, you know, create privacy and create a
beautiful backyard that we're going to do all
sorts of things in --in terms of improvements,
but that's sort of the gist of why we're trying
to get a 6-foot fence, so that --so we can
have privacy, and so my --so I can feel safe
with my children running around back there
with you know, not --no one can see over or
see through the hedge.
I don't know who owns that hedge, but I
know the City maintains it, which is part of
the reason why we --initially, we weren't sure
we even needed a fence because that hedge was
nice and thick, but the City came through and
just sort of gutted it. And so then it really
opened up our backyard. And you hear traffic,
you see everybody walking along, which is fine,
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but I have young children, and so, you know,
there's safety issues, but --so that sort of
pushed us over the edge of wanting to put up a
fence there, so -
But, you know, we're trying to beautify -
we have a whole plan to redo that --the whole
house, and this is just part of it. We're not
just putting up a fence. I'm doing a whole
redo on the exterior of the home.
And so I tried to provide pictures so you
can see it. It's sort of a rundown condition.
It's a really neat mid-century house, but
it's --you know, it--it needs an update, so
that's --this is just part of that plan.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.
You guys have any additional questions for
the applicant?
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.)
I drove by, you know, both streets, both
(inaudible) . And it appears to me that that's
a very, very small backyard. Given the shape
of the lot and the position of the house, that
a lot of your yard space down here, on this
point where you wouldn't be allowed
(inaudible), you wouldn't put --place that,
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you wouldn't want the kids there.
MS. GAGLIONE: Agreed.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.)
And that you'd have a hard time setting
that fence back to have any (inaudible)
MS. GAGLIONE: Absolutely.
And we planted a lot of fruit trees right
along in there that was part of sort of the
master plan to create this park environment ln
our backyard, and it would if I have to come
ten feet within the fence, my fruit trees are
going to be outside my fence, so that's not
going to work. So -
And it --I don't I just don't think it
would --I don't think it would look nice
ten feet in. If you see the property
especially not with that hedge there, because
you'll have a tall hedge, ten feet, and a
fence. It's not --it's going to look weird.
So, to me, it just made perfect sense to
come right in behind the hedge. You've already
got a --a visual line there. I'm just
mimicking it and sort of cleaning it up, I feel
like, trying to make it look more, I don't
know, attractive, from --from the street
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because the hedge really is not that --it's
not that attractive. It's kind of --it's a
little squirrely-looking. It needs some love.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: All right. You guys have
any additional questions for the applicant?
BOARD MEMBERS: (No response.)
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.
MS. GAGLIONE: Thank you.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: I'd like to take this
time to open this up to public comment.
Is there any public comment on this
variance?
AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.)
THE CHAIRWOMAN: It appears there is no
public comment.
MS. GAGLIONE: I meant to --I'm sorry, I
forgot.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Please.
MS. GAGLIONE: I did speak with four of my
neighbors, and I have their addresses and names
that I can tell you --so I spoke with the
four --the two directly across the street from
me at 1510 and 1520, and the two to my side,
1515, 1525. I explained exactly what I was
doing and I showed them my pictures. None of
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them had any objection to the --and I can get
statements if that's necessary, but I --I
didn't know that I needed to bring them down
here.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.
MS. GAGLIONE: Thank you.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: I'd like to take this
time to close the public comment portion and
bring it back to the board for discussion and
motion.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: So I feel like I'm
doing all the talking tonight, and I'm not sure
why, but maybe because they're all in my
neighborhood.
So that's really unfortunate about the
hedge because that was a pretty good-looking
hedge for a long time, and I didn't know who
slaughtered it, but
MS. GAGLIONE: It wasn't us.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay. Thank you.
I remember Dr. McKay (phonetic) used to
live in this house. He built this house, yeah,
and it is it is a wonderful --to me, a
wonderful example of the kind of homes that
were built in that sort of golden 1950s, 1960s
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time in Selva Marina. It's a beautiful house
and I hope you're going to keep the character
of the house when you remodel it.
You know, there are rules and then there
are rules that make sense. And the fact that
the Seminole Road side of the house is the
front of the house --I mean, I get it, that
that's a rule, but you could if a hundred
people stood in front of the house and you
said, where is the front of the house, they
would say it's Selva Marina Drive.
And it's --this house lS parallel to all
the other hous8s that go right up that side of
the street. I mean, there's nothing about this
house that says the front yard is Seminole
Road. So I would be inclined to say, you know,
go ahead and build a fence behind the hedge. I
think that makes a lot of sense.
I'm not sure about this chunk that sticks
out closer towards the street, but what I'm
seeing here is the property line. I'm not
seeing, like, the street and the sidewalk. I
don't know, like, how close this --Derek,
could you put the --the property picture back
up again?
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MR. REEVES: Or do you want the survey?
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay. No, that
okay. So that yellow line is actually the
property line?
MR. REEVES: I would not rely on that.
I'll go back to the
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay.
MR. REEVES: The lower corner there is the
survey. That one's more accurate.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.)
This lS the --because you've got where
the fence
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay. So one of my
concerns, when I saw this in our packet, was,
wait a minute, is there going to be a 6-foot
fence, like, coming out sort of into that nice,
little triangle that --the triangle does need
some --it needs some love. It's ratty and
it's full of ants and all that, but it looks to
me like the fence is not going to come out into
the triangle because that's not even your
property.
MS. GAGLIONE: Exactly.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay. That was my
biggest concern about this.
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So the fence lS going to be up much closer
to the house, and I don't think it will be -
well, staff has already said it's not going to
be an obstruction for traffic, for the --for
the visual part of pulling in or out, and it's
not going to invade that little triangle there.
So I'm--I'm peaceful with this one.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.)
Do you see where the fence is drawn
(inaudible)?
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Uh-huh.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.)
I'm not sure what triangle you're talking
about.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Below that --the
bottom curve there, so -
THE CHAIRWOMAN: There's quite a bit of
grass between -
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: There's --yeah,
there's --there was a -
(Simultaneous speaking.)
THE CHAIRWOMAN: It's heavily grassed
before it's paved.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yes. There's a big,
grassy triangle there that --again, it needs
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to be prettier, but the fence does not invade
that triangle because that's not even her
property.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Thank you.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah. See, that's
a --Derek is pointing to that big triangle
there.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Yes.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah. So there's a
lot of property, actually, before you get back
to where the fence would be.
MS. GAGLIONE: (Inaudible.)
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, ma'am, please.
MS. GAGLIONE: If I may, the house -
THE CHAIRWOMAN: You have to come up to
the microphone so we can hear you.
(Ms. Gaglione approaches the podium.)
MS. GAGLIONE: The home has a 40-foot
setback to Seminole Road. So where the fence
is going to come over to the, quote-unquote -
what I call the front of the --the front yard,
which is the front of the house, but it's
actually the side yard, that's 40 foot set back
off the road because that's what the setback is
on Seminole --on Selva Marina.
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BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah.
MS. GAGLIONE: So it's 40 foot back from
the property line, and then it's --there's
another 20 to 30 feet from that triangle.
mean, it's it's --I mean, it's just a
massive amount of property right there, so
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah.
MS. GAGLIONE: It's not going to look even
remotely close to being on Seminole Road at the
front. As it goes along the side, it's just
going to go along the hedge line and the
sidewalk, if that makes sense.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Before this train
leaves the station here, I will caution that
this is still a right-of-way where 6-foot
fences are not allowed. And the neighbor to
the northeast could come in here and ask for
the same thing, if we approve this variance,
and say, "I want to put a 6-foot fence along
the property line just like my neighbor to the
south did."
And, you know, this is one of these --I
get what the applicant wants to do, I
sympathize, and I would want the same thing.
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would want to capture my yard and --but I'm
looking at this from the duty of setting
precedence.
And it's not that this wouldn't --this
isn't needed, but we really are setting
ourselves up for everyone else on Seminole
Road, not to mention all the other streets
as you remember we had this very controversial
one down here by the school a while back where
they wanted a 6-foot fence in the front yard
along the property line, and we
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Made them tear it down.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: --denied it. We
made them tear it down after they put it up.
And, you know, this is what this board is
for, is to not get the City in trouble or set
precedence where someone can haul the City into
court saying, "Well, you gave it to them, you
have to give it to me." We're here as
guardians of the LDRs, and I think that, you
know, the setbacks are huge there, I agree.
And, actually, I --I'm working on a
property nearby and the sidewalk is actually
about 5 feet off the property line there,
but --neither here nor there, she can still
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put up a fence along the property line. It
just can't be 6 feet. It can be 4 feet. And
you can plant a 6-foot hedge behind it, or 1n
front of it if you wanted to, even.
So it's not like you're not getting
anything, but it's just the --as the codes
say, you can't have a 4-foot [sic] fence along
the property line, along the roadway. No
matter if there's 30 or 40 feet of grass
between it, it's just, you know, the language
in the code 1s no 6-foot fence along the
right-of-way.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: And there have been a
variety of other ones that were close to some
beach accesses that we told them you can have a
4-foot fence and plant a hedge.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: But I'm--I'm all
ears to change it. I just really caution that,
you know, we could get into some sticky
situations. If someone wants to come in and
put a 6-foot fence on the property line on
Seminole, and the --one thing the whole
reason that ordinance lS there is so that we
don't look at canyons of fences along our
roadways.
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BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: Yeah. I mean,
we --I remember many people coming in --that
new house at the end of 6th Street that came in
and they requested the 6-foot fence and we
said, no, put up a 4-foot and put the
landscaping in, and they did that, and it looks
great. So they have their privacy from the
combination of the fence and the landscaping.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: You know, this
probably is not the time to do this, but when
codes are revisited, we --we've had the front
yard/side yard issues in front of us a few
times, where everything about a house says this
is the front yard, except the code, which says
it's not, it's a side yard. I think it was
2nd Street?
THE CHAIRWOMAN: We've had a variety.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: We've had a bunch of
them.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Many double-frontage lots
have aggrieved us at some point.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah. So I'm hoping
that we can make that make a little bit more
sense maybe in the future because I think this
does confuse citizens, when they presume that
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when they look at their house and everything
about it, including the address, says this is
the front yard, and then they move ahead with
plans and find out, no, it isn't. As a matter
of fact, everything is different because your
front yard is over there.
I just think that's something that should
be addressed, but that's not an issue for us
this evening, but I'd like it to be sort of
bookmarked somewhere -
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And I agree.
And I sympathize with the homeowner here
because, in this instance, there's a tremendous
amount of land. It makes perfect sense to put
a fence there, but the problem is we have this
one-size-fits-all rule
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: --about fencing
where --you know, whether it's on 3rd Street
and East Coast or whether it's on Seminole and
Selva Marina Drive, it's--you know, we're
stuck with this code. And if we approve a
variance going against that, we really create a
lot of hardship for ourselves down the road,
and the City.
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MR. REEVES: I could provide a little more
insight to the other code provisions.
So on corner lots, the --we, obviously,
have the front yard requirement, 20 feet back,
but the side yard adjoining the street also has
its own requirements.
In this case, because the right---both
right-of-ways are over 50 feet wide. They're
both 100-foot-wide right-of-ways. A 6-foot
fence has to be either 5 feet off of the
sidewalk or 15 feet off of edge of pavement.
So just giving you an idea, when we look
at these corner lot situations for fencing,
even the side yard does have some setback
requirements, the side yard that's adjoining
the street. It's at 5 feet from the sidewalk,
15 feet from the edge of pavement for the
street itself. So the code does kind of
consider it -
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Is that for a 4-foot
fence or a 6-foot?
MR. REEVES: That's for the 6-foot fence.
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: But the 4-foot
fence could go in as proposed, where they're
proposing the current fence now, with no
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variance needed, correct?
MR. REEVES: Four-foot fences can go up to
property lines everywhere, unless there's a
sight line issue at the intersection, but
otherwise they can go to property lines.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: But the location --a
6-foot fence could go in there if the other
side of her house was considered the front
yard. It could be --because it's 5 feet from
the sidewalk. So if she really --if the City
considered Selva Marina the front of her house
instead of Seminole.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: But it's still a
right-of-way on the side yard. I mean, that's
the problem with corner lots, is that you
essentially have two
THE CHAIRWOMAN: But Derek said it could
be 5 feet from the sidewalk.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: For
MR. REEVES: Right.
So if the dimensions were slightly
different and Selva Marina was the front yard
by code, we would allow the fence along
Seminole Road to be 5 feet off of the sidewalk
and it can be 6 feet tall. Obviously, that's
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not the situation. But if Selva Marina were
the front yard, that's what the regulation
would be.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: But if the sidewalk
is already 3 to 5 feet off the property line,
all you're saying is you need to be 5 feet back
from that sidewalk and you can put a 6-foot
fence up along Seminole?
MR. Rr:EVES: Right. Whether it's on the
property line or, you know, just a foot or two
in, yeah, it could -
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: So if the owner to
the north, whose front yard technically is
along Seminole too, wants to put a 6-foot fence
or they --can they come and put a 6-foot fence
5 feet behind the sidewalk too, then, even
though their house is facing -
THE CHAIRWOMAN: No, because they're -
(Simultaneous speaking.)
MR. REEVES: That's one of those ugly
situations that, the way the code is today, can
create. They would have to be 20 feet back.
So, theoretically, in this situation, you
could have a 6-foot fence 5 feet off the
sidewalk at the corner lot and then 20 feet
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back for the adjoining property if that's just
the way the dimensions work out.
It's not ideal, but that's the way the
code works today.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, if staff is
can defend putting the 6-foot fence up along
the right-of-way there
MR. REEVES: Well
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: then -
MR. REEVES: I can't. That's why we're
here for a variance.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well --but you're
saying that you can put a 6-foot fence up
5 feet back from the sidewalk. And if the
sidewalk
MR. REEVES: In certain situations, yes.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And if the sidewalk
is, say, 3 feet off the right-of-way, you're
essentially putting a 6-foot fence 2 feet back
into their property.
MR. REEVES: Yes, if that --in the right
situation. This is -
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And -
MR. REEVES: --not that situation.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And -
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BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: And not in this
situation.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yeah. I was going to
say, unfortunately, we're faced with what
we're --what the rules are at this -
(Simultaneous speaking.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Inaudible) the
side yard/front yard issue.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, which I hope we can
address through our Land Development Code. And
I'm not sure how we would address it, but it
seems to have been an aggravating factor for a
variety of variances for houses that were
constructed quite some time ago.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: You know, I think
it's interesting, just as a comment, all three
requests that we've heard so far tonight were
all things that people don't know when they buy
a house. You know, they're--they're in the
fine print somewhere in the title or maybe not
even in the title. I mean, in the --in the
title search to this house, did it say the
front yard is on Seminole Road? Probably not.
So these are all those kind of buyer-beware
kind of things. It's really unfortunate.
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BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, I don't know
how the lot got assigned a Seminole Road
address if it has a Selva Marina address. I
mean, that house has been there 50 years at
least, and
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Because it's the
shorter of the two -
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Because that's --at some
point our code said we have to define what the
front of the lot is. And they said, all right,
we'll make it the skinny side.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well --but, no, I
mean
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Oh, well, that's a
question.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Most address
assignments are done at the point of a building
permit for new --undeveloped property. It's
not assigned when it's platted. It's --the
address is assigned when the --at least
currently, today. I don't know what it was
like when this house was built, but addresses
are not assigned until --on undeveloped
property, until a building permit is submitted.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Well, here's what I
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would want to know, then: We know that this
street was developed in the 1950s, right?
Maybe '60s, but-
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Yeah, '60s.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: --probably in the
'50s, late '50s. At that time, did the --was
it in the City's code that the shorter lot line
is the front yard or did that happen after the
house was already built? Because it was built
and it was assigned an address of Selva Marina
Drive. So when did that happen?
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Usually at the point
of construction is usually when the address is
assigned to a house.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Well, right. I know
that, but at what point did the rule come along
that said if you have a corner lot, your
shorter --your shorter distance is your front
yard? Did that happen after this house was
built or before?
THE CHAIRWOMAN: I would say it would have
had to have happened after it because if you
knew that building the house, that the
narrowest your front of your lot was
considered the narrowest side, you would have
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oriented your house entirely different, at
least I would have -
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Uh-huh.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: --because then you would
be
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Do you know, Derek?
MR. REEVES: No, I don't know. And I -
because the code was rewritten in '82, it's
very hard to research anything prior to that as
far as what the regulation was at the time of
construction.
I wanted to point out a couple of things
since we're going down this road. The first
is, addresses have nothing to do with the front
of the property as far as code definition.
That's why you see through-lots on Beach Avenue
that have Beach Avenue addresses and some have
Ocean Boulevard addresses. It's a choice
thing. The City, honestly --once you decide.
If you request a change, as long as you have
frontage on that street, we'll let you name it
or address it that way.
The whole reason we have this definition
of "corner lot" is really not for fences. It's
more for your building setbacks. And I'll
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point out that this structure is a
nonconforming structure. That northern end
is --it looks like 10.1 feet from the property
line. That's technically the rear yard. It
should be 20 feet off.
Where this really comes into play is those
lots in North Atlantic Beach where it's 50 by
130 feet deep. If you say --and say that lot
is on the corner of 3rd and East Coast and the
shorter side is on 3rd, the longer side is on
East Coast, if you want an East Coast address
and the front of your home faces East Coast and
you apply those front yard setbacks and it's
only a 50-foot-wide lot, well, it's a 20-foot
setback in the front and 20-foot setback in the
rear, you end up with a 10-foot-wide buildable
area.
That is why we have the narrowest side is
the front. It's to determine those setbacks
and how that works. Fences have kind of fallen
into that as a way to regulate it and, you
know, how we determine the location as
appropriate.
But addressing, design of the house, all
of that, as far as where your front door is and
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the functionality of your house is completely
independent of the setbacks. I just wanted to
make you all aware of that, you know, as you
have your discussion.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: So you're saying if
she tore down her garage on the north end, she
couldn't put it --rebuild it, essentially?
She --you'd have to take --chop 10 feet off
of it because that's considered the rear yard?
MR. REEVES: Correct.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Don't tear down your
garage.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: You know, we have a
highly irregular property and code here, and
know it's strange that it's right next door to
a property that could not have a 6-foot fence
there, but on the other hand, we have a great
family house there with crazy limitations due
to both shape of the lot and some craziness in
the code, and I --I think it's very
justifiable to give this variance.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I am --unless
somebody can provide evidence otherwise, I am
not convinced that the front yard rule about
which side is the front yard, I'm not convinced
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that that existed when this house was built,
unless somebody can prove it to me that it was.
And you said our code was written in --was
rewritten in 1989?
MR. REEVES: '82.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: '82?
MR. REEVES: I know we have a full version
from '50, but that doesn't guarantee that I can
find your answer.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: So you can't find an
answer to say that I'm right, but you also
can't find an answer to say that I'm wrong,
correct?
MR. REEVES: Yeah. I can't find it at
this moment, definitely.
If you want me to go back and do the
research, we can do that and bring it to you
next time, if that's what you're looking for.
Maybe we find an answer, maybe we don't.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Well, an answer
could give me the confidence to vote on this
without a doubt, if the applicant is willing to
wait.
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: I mean, how do you
feel about, you know, the --the tunneling
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effect -
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I don't -
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: --that we talk
about all the time?
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: We do.
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: And that, to me,
it's an issue here because it's one of the main
thoroughfares in and out of Atlantic Beach.
And a 6-foot fence is pretty significantly
different than the 4-foot that --they could
put the 4-foot without the variance and then
they could plant the landscaping, just like
the many other houses that we've talked about.
And they get all the privacy they want. They
get the security still, if they have pets that
are running around in the back, they don't want
to get oul, and they still have all the privacy
with the mature landscaping.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I don't think the
tunneling effect on this piece of property is
an issue as it is in, like, some of the
numbered streets. We really are concerned
about the tunneling effect, and I know we've
talked about it on Section H. In some of those
areas we've talked about it.
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This is --this piece of property is so
spacious. It lS so big. And if you look at it
up there in that picture --I mean, from where
it --look at where the house is.
I feel like I'm really lobbying for this,
and I don't know why, but -
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: It's not really
the size of the house, but it's the proximity
of the fence to the road.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: It's not close.
It's not close. There's a huge hedge, which is
probably 10 foot tall. The fence would be on
the other side of the hedge and wouldn't be as
tall as the hedge. So most of this, like this
much here (indicating) would be behind a hedge.
If we were going to ask the applicant to
do something different, we could maybe say,
would you not build the fence out quite so far?
Maybe keep it more towards the backyard than
the front corner of the house? I mean, I think
that might be a compromise, but that still
doesn't fix the front yard issue.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, just so -
you've got to --I mean, the thing that strikes
me --I mean, I try to sympathize with every
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person that comes forward to try to improve
their property, but I --I'm just really
concerned about, you know, the precedent it's
going to set with other homeowners along
Seminole, and -
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: But the other
homeowners, they're not corner lots along
Seminole -
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, the point -
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: The neighbor next
door
THE CHAIRWOMAN: The people right here on
the road that leads to the back end to the
elementary school, they had to take their
6-foot fence down because they put it up
without a permit. And I have to tell you, if
anybody needed security and privacy to keep
kids from throwing trash and things ln their
yard, that would have been someone --and we
told them, no, you can have a 4-foot fence with
a hedge.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I have
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I don't remember
that.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I have a real
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difference between that and this.
The setbacks on Seminole are really wide.
How far off the edge of the road is the
property line?
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Oh, it's a good-
MR. REEVES: That's what we don't know for
sure.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: It's about 32 feet.
I mean, the road itself is about 28 feet wide
and it's a 100-foot right-of-way, so do the
math.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Yeah.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: I mean, it's-
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: So the two --the
two are not comparable at all. This is a long
way back. It really does not have that
tunneling effect because it's so far from
Seminole Road.
MS. GAGLIONE: May I
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, Sylvia, I
agree with you, and I --I get that, but the
point is, the fence setback criteria is
one-size-fits-all, unfortunately, and that's
what we have to work with.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: But we do have -
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we can grant a variance based on -
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: No question. It's
just that you open up a whole other kettle of
fish.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Well, there are
other corner lots, but very few --there's
maybe a similar lot at
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Country Club.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (inaudible)
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Country Club and
Seminole is a big corner lot.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: But certainly most
of the houses on corner lots along Seminole
have --don't have --they have a square lot.
They're nothing like this one. This is --this
really is a very unusually shaped and irregular
shaped lot, Number 5.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, Sylvia, just
to comment on your -
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Inaudible.)
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, I mean, that's
fine, but if you just go up two blocks, up to
Country Club and Seminole, that big, vacant -
not vacant --the big lot with the house with
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I
the metal roof that's on the southwest corner,
it's the same --that lot is almost identical
to this and it's the same configuration.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Well, I'm sorry,
can't place that one. I place the one on
East Coast -
(Simultaneous speaking.)
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Inaudible)
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: We're on --we're
driving north on Seminole.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Yeah.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And you're coming
Country Club is the one that cuts over to
Selva, where 16th is.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Yeah.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And it's a big -
it's a real open lot. It's kind of a long
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I'm sorry, I
can't -
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: --ranch (inaudible)
house with a metal roof -
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I'm sorry,
can't -
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: but the lot is
the same thing. I mean, it's a 100-foot
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right-of-way and it's a big lot and it's almost
the same shape as this. I wish we had Google
Earth up, you could see it.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: It's that house that
has like three legs.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Yes, but it's the
same thing. So imagine putting a 6-foot fence
along their, quote, side yard there. And
that's really wide open. You'd see that big as
life and then, I mean, they could say, "Well,
you did it down the street, why can't I do it
here?"
It's actually Tad Chance's (phonetic)
house. I don't know if you know Tad or not,
Tad and Karen Chance.
You know, I would love to grant this
variance, and there's a lot of me that could be
convinced otherwise. I'd have to have the
support of staff and, you know, playing some
gymnastics with the verbiage a little bit, but
I --I'm really concerned about -
You know, fences are one of the biggest
issues we get variances on. And if you let -
everyone comes in with their issues and their
pleas and we all sympathize with that, but the
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bottom line is we're here to look at --I mean,
we're given this one-size-fits-all fence
criteria, and that's what we have to work with
right now. And I just feel that if you put
this fence right along the Seminole
right-of-way, even though it's going to be
30-something feet off the edge of pavement, I
just worry about what the other homeowners are
saying. "Well, my front yard faces Seminole.
I want to be able to do the same thing here."
And we're really creating some real
issues. Then it starts --let's say four or
five people start doing that and you get the
canyon effect with the fences, and now look
where we are.
MS. GAGLIONE: Chairwoman -
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Ma'am, I'm sorry, the
public comment portion is closed and it's just
the discussion with the board.
MS. GAGLIONE: Oh. So I can't say
anything else?
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Correct.
MS. GAGLIONE: Oh, okay.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.
MS. GAGLIONE: Thanks.
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THE CHAIRWOMAN: Would it help you guys if
we ask the applicant to flag or stake the
limits of where the fence is? Because I think
that's part of the problem, is we can't quite
picture exactly where the fence would be
placed. Would that be --would that be more
helpful to you?
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Well, maybe that,
and also, are there --Kelly, can you see any
compromises? Any
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, you know, I
would say you could certainly put the
4-foot-high fence in without even having to
request for a variance. And if you want to
plant a hedge in front or behind it to get your
6 feet, you can do that. You know, 6 feet is
maximum.
But, you know, trying to find a compromise
is just allowing --it's not adhering to the
way the law is written, and I don't see a
hardship here in the sense that there's
something really weird. I mean, it's just
it's a corner lot and it's part and parcel
of --when you buy a corner lot, you get
increased setbacks.
®icm~ M. Tropia, lne., Post Offiee. Box 2375, Jaekg,onvilk, fk 32203
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BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: When you buy a
corner lot, you do not always have an
irregular-shaped property.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, I wouldn't say
that this is particularly irregularly shaped.
I mean, as a land planner, I see a lot of lots
like this.
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: And it's really
not that irregular shape that's causing to
bring any of this to issue anyway.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: It's strictly
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Well, I felt it was
when I drove by, Patrick, because the --look
at the backyard space. It's--you know, it's
very small.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: If this house were
built today and the --and it was a scraped -
scraped lot, and someone was told, "Well, your
front yard is Seminole Road," I would think
they would build a house that faced Seminole
Road with the backyard --a spacious backyard
that went up Selva --you know, I would. This
is --I don't know.
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: So why is the yard
size at issue even? I mean, whether we talk
t>ianll M. Tropia, In e., Post Offie(Z :Box 2375, Jaeksonvillll, fb 32203
(904) 821-0300
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about a 4-foot fence or a 6-foot fence, it's
not going to change anything about the usable
space in the yard.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: No, it's not. I was
just saying, if there was no house on this
property and you bought the property and
somebody said, "Well, this is your front yard,"
then you would --you would consider that in
where you place the house.
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: I agree, but
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: But I believe,
probably, at the time this was built --and it
was Roger Bull (phonetic) that developed all of
it, right? I think things were just very
different. I mean, look at where the garage is
built. It's --you know, it's --it's kind of
wedged up in the corner.
I don't know if that garage was an add-on.
Was it an add-on? I don't think it was an
add-on. It looks like it was part of the
house, but --anyway, it was put on the
property funny. I don't I don't know.
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: Hey, I'm off the
board in three months. You guys can be stuck
with it, if you --you know.
®icm~ M. Tropia, Inc., Post Officll :Box 2375, Jacksonvill~, fb 32203
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BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: We need to -
unless you think putting it off would bring
something that would clarify, and I don't think
that that would do anything for Kelly's vote or
Patrick's vote. We need to either --I'll make
a motion and we can vote it up or down. Is
that okay?
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, ma'am. Please.
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I would like to
move to grant Variance 17-0010.
And I do think it has an irregular shape
that makes that backyard very small for a play
yard with kids.
So that's it.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: Do I have a second?
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I'll second.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: All in favor?
BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Aye.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Aye.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: All opposed?
Nay.
BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Nay.
BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: Nay.
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I think that's the
first time we've ever had such a close vote.
®ian!Z M. Tropia, In e., Post Office, :Box 2375, Jaeksonvill!Z, f'b 32203
(904) 821-0300
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THE CHAIRWOMAN: We've only got five
tonight, so that -
BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Oh, right.
THE CHAIRWOMAN: So that brings us much
closer.
All right. That brings us to Item Number
4C, ZVAR17-0009.
(The above proceedings were concluded at
approximately 7:40p.m.)
* * * * *
<flian~ M. Yropia, Ine., Post Offie!l Box 2375, Jaeksonvill~, fb 32203
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
STATE OF FLORIDA)
)
COUNTY OF DUVAL )
I, Diane M. Tropia, Florida Professional
Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
transcribe the foregoing videotaped proceedings to
the best of my ability.
DATED this lOth day of February 2018.
Diane M. Tropia
Florida Professional Reporter
<Vian\Z M. Tropia, In e., Po2>t Offiec :Rox 2375, Jaek2>onviii\Z, fb 32203
(904) 821-0300