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11-21-18 CDB Meeting TranscriptCITY OF ATLANTIC BEACH COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT BOARD MEETING Excerpt of videotaped proceedings held on Tuesday, November 21, 2017, commencing at approximately 6:55p.m., at City Hall, Commission Chambers, 800 Seminole Road, Atlantic Beach, Florida. BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: A. BREA PAUL, Chairwoman. LINDA LANIER, Board Member. KELLY ELMORE, Board Member. PATRICK STRATTON, Board Member. SYLVIA SIMMONS, Board Member. ALSO PRESENT: BRENNA DURDEN, City Attorney. DEREK REEVES, Interim Development Director. BRIAN BROEDELL, City Planner. VALERIE JONES, Administrative Assistant. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 P R 0 C E E D I N G S November 21, 2017 6:55 p.m. * * * * * THE CHAIRWOMAN: Our next agenda item is Item 4B, ZVAR17-0010, and I will turn it over to staff. MR. BROEDELL: Good evening, board. So good news, this is not in a PUD. So this is a variance to allow a 6-foot fence in the front yard at 1505 Selva Marina Drive. This property is in the RS-L, large lot zoning district. Future land use, Residential Low Density. And it is a corner lot that fronts both Selva Marina Drive and Seminole Road. And the City code defines corner lots as abutting two or more streets, and then it goes on to explain that the exterior lot line of the narrowest side of the lot adjoining the street shall be considered the front of the lot. So, with that, that makes the southern property line that fronts --or abuts Seminole Road the front of this property by code. So the proposed plan is to install a 6-foot-tall wood fence to run along this southern front property line (indicating), <E>icm(l M. Tropia, Inc., Post Offie(l :Box 2375, Je.eksonvi!!(l, fk 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 before it kind of makes a turn and then runs back to the house. So the need for a variance is Section 24-157, within required front yards the maximum height of any fence shall be 4 feet; and then within required side or rear yards, the maximum height of any fence shall be 6 feet. So as I stated with --how the City code defines the front yard for corner lots, this 6-foot fence would be --is in their required front yard. So the proposed fence along this southern property line would be over 30 feet from the pavement of Seminole Road. And as you can see from this aerial, the property is a good distance away from the intersection of Selva Marina and Seminole Road. So sight line issues are pretty minimal. Continuing with that, the --if you can see that hedge in these three pictures, the hedge is on right-of-way, City property, so the majority of this proposed fence would be placed behind that hedge, before it comes out a little bit more and then runs back to the house. So, again, minimizing sight line issues even more. ®ian12 M. Tropia, lne., Post Offiee :Box 2375, Jaeksonvill!Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 Any questions? BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.) I think I read that what they're proposing lS right on the property line; is that correct? MR. BROEDELL: Yes. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.) Another question, how many (inaudible) are there between the sidewalk and the property line of the proposed fence? MR. BROEDELL: That, I don't know. Based on just kind of eyeing it, while I was out there, it's probably about 5 feet, but that's --that's really just based on walking out there. It doesn't say on the survey or BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I can comment on that. Again, it's my 'hood. That's a really mature ligustrum hedge. I believe it's ligustrum, maybe viburnum. And I remember when that was planted. And it's gotten really mature and it's --it really is right --it's very close to the sidewalk. And so if it's on the City right-of-way, then I would guess this proposed fence would be back about 5 feet from the sidewalk, possibly? MR. BROEDELL: Yeah. ®ian}! M. rropia, lne., Poaot Office Box 2375, ]aekaoonvi!!}!, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 It would definitely --I'm not exactly sure where the property line is behind that hedge. I know it's, obviously, behind the hedge. And, again, based on just going out there, it looks like it would be at least 5 feet from the sidewalk. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: And the City did not plant that hedge, correct, or do you know? My guess is not. MR. BROEDELL: Yeah, I'm not sure. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Do you guys have any additional questions for staff? BOARD MEMBERS: (No response.) THE CHAIRWOMAN: No. All right. Thank you. MR. BROEDELL: Uh-huh. THE CHAIRWOMAN: All right. If the applicant is here and would like to make a statement. (Audience member approaches the podium.) AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I'm Lori Gaglione. I live at 1505 Selva Marina Drive. So, as he stated, my property is unusually configured because the the home is built <Dian~ M. Tropia, Ine., Post Office Box 2375, Jaeksonvill~. fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 facing Selva Marina Drive. Our address is Selva Marina Drive. Our door opens to Selva Marina Drive. Our driveways are on Selva Marina Drive. And it was unbeknownst to me --Seminole Road's considered our front yard. So when we had all these plans drawn up to do the fence, I had no idea. And so, of course, when the permit was denied, I was told we needed to get the variance. Okay. So the plan is to come ln right behind the hedge so that --and I brought a picture of another property at the beach that's got a similar sort of configuration with a fence inside of a hedge line, which is --and this is kind of the style fence that we're proposing (indicating). And I submitted a bunch of pictures with my --I don't know if you guys all got that. I -­ THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, we did. MS. GAGLIONE: Okay. THE CHAIRWOMAN: There were a variety of pictures sent in our packet. MS. GAGLIONE: Yeah. I was trying to sort CViBn)Z M. ·rropiB, Inc., Post Office :Rox 2375, ]Beksonviii)Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 of maybe--the whole gist of what we're trying to do, and --and the reason for fencing off the backyard is we have young children. We're trying to make a backyard because right now, you know, it's just kind of an open property. Everybody on Seminole Road can see into our backyard. You can see in from the front. You can see along the sides. So we're trying to just, you know, create privacy and create a beautiful backyard that we're going to do all sorts of things in --in terms of improvements, but that's sort of the gist of why we're trying to get a 6-foot fence, so that --so we can have privacy, and so my --so I can feel safe with my children running around back there with you know, not --no one can see over or see through the hedge. I don't know who owns that hedge, but I know the City maintains it, which is part of the reason why we --initially, we weren't sure we even needed a fence because that hedge was nice and thick, but the City came through and just sort of gutted it. And so then it really opened up our backyard. And you hear traffic, you see everybody walking along, which is fine, ®ianiZ M. Tropia, Inc., Post Office Bo~ 2375, )acksonvillll, f6 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 but I have young children, and so, you know, there's safety issues, but --so that sort of pushed us over the edge of wanting to put up a fence there, so -­ But, you know, we're trying to beautify -­ we have a whole plan to redo that --the whole house, and this is just part of it. We're not just putting up a fence. I'm doing a whole redo on the exterior of the home. And so I tried to provide pictures so you can see it. It's sort of a rundown condition. It's a really neat mid-century house, but it's --you know, it--it needs an update, so that's --this is just part of that plan. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. You guys have any additional questions for the applicant? BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.) I drove by, you know, both streets, both (inaudible) . And it appears to me that that's a very, very small backyard. Given the shape of the lot and the position of the house, that a lot of your yard space down here, on this point where you wouldn't be allowed (inaudible), you wouldn't put --place that, CVian}Z M. Tropia, Inc., Post Offie\Z :Rox 2375, ]aeksonvill}Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 you wouldn't want the kids there. MS. GAGLIONE: Agreed. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.) And that you'd have a hard time setting that fence back to have any (inaudible) MS. GAGLIONE: Absolutely. And we planted a lot of fruit trees right along in there that was part of sort of the master plan to create this park environment ln our backyard, and it would if I have to come ten feet within the fence, my fruit trees are going to be outside my fence, so that's not going to work. So -­ And it --I don't I just don't think it would --I don't think it would look nice ten feet in. If you see the property especially not with that hedge there, because you'll have a tall hedge, ten feet, and a fence. It's not --it's going to look weird. So, to me, it just made perfect sense to come right in behind the hedge. You've already got a --a visual line there. I'm just mimicking it and sort of cleaning it up, I feel like, trying to make it look more, I don't know, attractive, from --from the street ®ian~ M. Tropia, Inc., Post Office :Mox 237.5, Jacksonvill~, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 because the hedge really is not that --it's not that attractive. It's kind of --it's a little squirrely-looking. It needs some love. THE CHAIRWOMAN: All right. You guys have any additional questions for the applicant? BOARD MEMBERS: (No response.) THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. MS. GAGLIONE: Thank you. THE CHAIRWOMAN: I'd like to take this time to open this up to public comment. Is there any public comment on this variance? AUDIENCE MEMBERS: (No response.) THE CHAIRWOMAN: It appears there is no public comment. MS. GAGLIONE: I meant to --I'm sorry, I forgot. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Please. MS. GAGLIONE: I did speak with four of my neighbors, and I have their addresses and names that I can tell you --so I spoke with the four --the two directly across the street from me at 1510 and 1520, and the two to my side, 1515, 1525. I explained exactly what I was doing and I showed them my pictures. None of <VianlZ M. rropia, lne., Post Offie\Z Box 237.5, Jeeksonvill~Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 them had any objection to the --and I can get statements if that's necessary, but I --I didn't know that I needed to bring them down here. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. MS. GAGLIONE: Thank you. THE CHAIRWOMAN: I'd like to take this time to close the public comment portion and bring it back to the board for discussion and motion. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: So I feel like I'm doing all the talking tonight, and I'm not sure why, but maybe because they're all in my neighborhood. So that's really unfortunate about the hedge because that was a pretty good-looking hedge for a long time, and I didn't know who slaughtered it, but MS. GAGLIONE: It wasn't us. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay. Thank you. I remember Dr. McKay (phonetic) used to live in this house. He built this house, yeah, and it is it is a wonderful --to me, a wonderful example of the kind of homes that were built in that sort of golden 1950s, 1960s CVicmiZ M. Tropia, lne., pog,t Office Box 2375, )aekg,onvilliZ, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 time in Selva Marina. It's a beautiful house and I hope you're going to keep the character of the house when you remodel it. You know, there are rules and then there are rules that make sense. And the fact that the Seminole Road side of the house is the front of the house --I mean, I get it, that that's a rule, but you could if a hundred people stood in front of the house and you said, where is the front of the house, they would say it's Selva Marina Drive. And it's --this house lS parallel to all the other hous8s that go right up that side of the street. I mean, there's nothing about this house that says the front yard is Seminole Road. So I would be inclined to say, you know, go ahead and build a fence behind the hedge. I think that makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure about this chunk that sticks out closer towards the street, but what I'm seeing here is the property line. I'm not seeing, like, the street and the sidewalk. I don't know, like, how close this --Derek, could you put the --the property picture back up again? ®ian~ M. Tropia, Inc., Po.\3t Office Box 2375, ]aek.\3onvill~, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 MR. REEVES: Or do you want the survey? BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay. No, that okay. So that yellow line is actually the property line? MR. REEVES: I would not rely on that. I'll go back to the BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay. MR. REEVES: The lower corner there is the survey. That one's more accurate. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.) This lS the --because you've got where the fence BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay. So one of my concerns, when I saw this in our packet, was, wait a minute, is there going to be a 6-foot fence, like, coming out sort of into that nice, little triangle that --the triangle does need some --it needs some love. It's ratty and it's full of ants and all that, but it looks to me like the fence is not going to come out into the triangle because that's not even your property. MS. GAGLIONE: Exactly. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Okay. That was my biggest concern about this. ®ian~ M. 'Tropia, lne., Post Offie<Z Box 2375, Jaeksonvill~, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 So the fence lS going to be up much closer to the house, and I don't think it will be -­ well, staff has already said it's not going to be an obstruction for traffic, for the --for the visual part of pulling in or out, and it's not going to invade that little triangle there. So I'm--I'm peaceful with this one. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.) Do you see where the fence is drawn (inaudible)? BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Uh-huh. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Off microphone.) I'm not sure what triangle you're talking about. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Below that --the bottom curve there, so -­ THE CHAIRWOMAN: There's quite a bit of grass between -­ BOARD MEMBER LANIER: There's --yeah, there's --there was a -­ (Simultaneous speaking.) THE CHAIRWOMAN: It's heavily grassed before it's paved. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yes. There's a big, grassy triangle there that --again, it needs <Eliarw M. ·rropia, In e., pog;t Offie<! Rox 2375, )aekg;onvill~Z, fk 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 to be prettier, but the fence does not invade that triangle because that's not even her property. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Thank you. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah. See, that's a --Derek is pointing to that big triangle there. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Yes. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah. So there's a lot of property, actually, before you get back to where the fence would be. MS. GAGLIONE: (Inaudible.) THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, ma'am, please. MS. GAGLIONE: If I may, the house -­ THE CHAIRWOMAN: You have to come up to the microphone so we can hear you. (Ms. Gaglione approaches the podium.) MS. GAGLIONE: The home has a 40-foot setback to Seminole Road. So where the fence is going to come over to the, quote-unquote -­ what I call the front of the --the front yard, which is the front of the house, but it's actually the side yard, that's 40 foot set back off the road because that's what the setback is on Seminole --on Selva Marina. ®icm~ M. Tropia, lne., Post OffieiZ Box 2375, )aeksonvill~, f6 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 I BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah. MS. GAGLIONE: So it's 40 foot back from the property line, and then it's --there's another 20 to 30 feet from that triangle. mean, it's it's --I mean, it's just a massive amount of property right there, so BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah. MS. GAGLIONE: It's not going to look even remotely close to being on Seminole Road at the front. As it goes along the side, it's just going to go along the hedge line and the sidewalk, if that makes sense. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Before this train leaves the station here, I will caution that this is still a right-of-way where 6-foot fences are not allowed. And the neighbor to the northeast could come in here and ask for the same thing, if we approve this variance, and say, "I want to put a 6-foot fence along the property line just like my neighbor to the south did." And, you know, this is one of these --I get what the applicant wants to do, I sympathize, and I would want the same thing. ®ian!Z M. Tropia, Inc., Post Office :Box 2375, )acksonviii!Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 would want to capture my yard and --but I'm looking at this from the duty of setting precedence. And it's not that this wouldn't --this isn't needed, but we really are setting ourselves up for everyone else on Seminole Road, not to mention all the other streets as you remember we had this very controversial one down here by the school a while back where they wanted a 6-foot fence in the front yard along the property line, and we THE CHAIRWOMAN: Made them tear it down. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: --denied it. We made them tear it down after they put it up. And, you know, this is what this board is for, is to not get the City in trouble or set precedence where someone can haul the City into court saying, "Well, you gave it to them, you have to give it to me." We're here as guardians of the LDRs, and I think that, you know, the setbacks are huge there, I agree. And, actually, I --I'm working on a property nearby and the sidewalk is actually about 5 feet off the property line there, but --neither here nor there, she can still ®ian~! M. Tropia, lne., Post Offiee :Box 2375, ]aeksonvill~Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 put up a fence along the property line. It just can't be 6 feet. It can be 4 feet. And you can plant a 6-foot hedge behind it, or 1n front of it if you wanted to, even. So it's not like you're not getting anything, but it's just the --as the codes say, you can't have a 4-foot [sic] fence along the property line, along the roadway. No matter if there's 30 or 40 feet of grass between it, it's just, you know, the language in the code 1s no 6-foot fence along the right-of-way. THE CHAIRWOMAN: And there have been a variety of other ones that were close to some beach accesses that we told them you can have a 4-foot fence and plant a hedge. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: But I'm--I'm all ears to change it. I just really caution that, you know, we could get into some sticky situations. If someone wants to come in and put a 6-foot fence on the property line on Seminole, and the --one thing the whole reason that ordinance lS there is so that we don't look at canyons of fences along our roadways. ®ian\Z M. Tropia, lne., Post Office Box 2375, ]aeksonvill\Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: Yeah. I mean, we --I remember many people coming in --that new house at the end of 6th Street that came in and they requested the 6-foot fence and we said, no, put up a 4-foot and put the landscaping in, and they did that, and it looks great. So they have their privacy from the combination of the fence and the landscaping. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: You know, this probably is not the time to do this, but when codes are revisited, we --we've had the front yard/side yard issues in front of us a few times, where everything about a house says this is the front yard, except the code, which says it's not, it's a side yard. I think it was 2nd Street? THE CHAIRWOMAN: We've had a variety. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: We've had a bunch of them. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Many double-frontage lots have aggrieved us at some point. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah. So I'm hoping that we can make that make a little bit more sense maybe in the future because I think this does confuse citizens, when they presume that <Viani(: M. 'Tropia, Inc., pog,t Office Box 2375, Jackg,onvill~Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 when they look at their house and everything about it, including the address, says this is the front yard, and then they move ahead with plans and find out, no, it isn't. As a matter of fact, everything is different because your front yard is over there. I just think that's something that should be addressed, but that's not an issue for us this evening, but I'd like it to be sort of bookmarked somewhere -­ BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And I agree. And I sympathize with the homeowner here because, in this instance, there's a tremendous amount of land. It makes perfect sense to put a fence there, but the problem is we have this one-size-fits-all rule BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Yeah. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: --about fencing where --you know, whether it's on 3rd Street and East Coast or whether it's on Seminole and Selva Marina Drive, it's--you know, we're stuck with this code. And if we approve a variance going against that, we really create a lot of hardship for ourselves down the road, and the City. CVi<.m~ M. Tropia, Inc., Post Office Box 2375, Jacksonvill~, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 MR. REEVES: I could provide a little more insight to the other code provisions. So on corner lots, the --we, obviously, have the front yard requirement, 20 feet back, but the side yard adjoining the street also has its own requirements. In this case, because the right---both right-of-ways are over 50 feet wide. They're both 100-foot-wide right-of-ways. A 6-foot fence has to be either 5 feet off of the sidewalk or 15 feet off of edge of pavement. So just giving you an idea, when we look at these corner lot situations for fencing, even the side yard does have some setback requirements, the side yard that's adjoining the street. It's at 5 feet from the sidewalk, 15 feet from the edge of pavement for the street itself. So the code does kind of consider it -­ BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Is that for a 4-foot fence or a 6-foot? MR. REEVES: That's for the 6-foot fence. BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: But the 4-foot fence could go in as proposed, where they're proposing the current fence now, with no ®iansz M. Tropia, Inc., Post Office Box 2375, ]acksonvillsz, f6 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 variance needed, correct? MR. REEVES: Four-foot fences can go up to property lines everywhere, unless there's a sight line issue at the intersection, but otherwise they can go to property lines. THE CHAIRWOMAN: But the location --a 6-foot fence could go in there if the other side of her house was considered the front yard. It could be --because it's 5 feet from the sidewalk. So if she really --if the City considered Selva Marina the front of her house instead of Seminole. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: But it's still a right-of-way on the side yard. I mean, that's the problem with corner lots, is that you essentially have two THE CHAIRWOMAN: But Derek said it could be 5 feet from the sidewalk. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: For MR. REEVES: Right. So if the dimensions were slightly different and Selva Marina was the front yard by code, we would allow the fence along Seminole Road to be 5 feet off of the sidewalk and it can be 6 feet tall. Obviously, that's ®ian\Z M. 'Tropia, Inc., Post Office-Box 2375, ]acksonviii\Z, f6 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 not the situation. But if Selva Marina were the front yard, that's what the regulation would be. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: But if the sidewalk is already 3 to 5 feet off the property line, all you're saying is you need to be 5 feet back from that sidewalk and you can put a 6-foot fence up along Seminole? MR. Rr:EVES: Right. Whether it's on the property line or, you know, just a foot or two in, yeah, it could -­ BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: So if the owner to the north, whose front yard technically is along Seminole too, wants to put a 6-foot fence or they --can they come and put a 6-foot fence 5 feet behind the sidewalk too, then, even though their house is facing -­ THE CHAIRWOMAN: No, because they're -­ (Simultaneous speaking.) MR. REEVES: That's one of those ugly situations that, the way the code is today, can create. They would have to be 20 feet back. So, theoretically, in this situation, you could have a 6-foot fence 5 feet off the sidewalk at the corner lot and then 20 feet q;)ian>Z M. Tropia, Inc., Post Office Rox 2375, )acksonvili>Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 back for the adjoining property if that's just the way the dimensions work out. It's not ideal, but that's the way the code works today. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, if staff is can defend putting the 6-foot fence up along the right-of-way there MR. REEVES: Well BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: then -­ MR. REEVES: I can't. That's why we're here for a variance. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well --but you're saying that you can put a 6-foot fence up 5 feet back from the sidewalk. And if the sidewalk MR. REEVES: In certain situations, yes. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And if the sidewalk is, say, 3 feet off the right-of-way, you're essentially putting a 6-foot fence 2 feet back into their property. MR. REEVES: Yes, if that --in the right situation. This is -­ BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And -­ MR. REEVES: --not that situation. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And -­ <Elian)l M. Tropia, lne., Post Offiee Box 237.5, Jaeksonviii\Z, fb 32203 (904,) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: And not in this situation. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yeah. I was going to say, unfortunately, we're faced with what we're --what the rules are at this -­ (Simultaneous speaking. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Inaudible) the side yard/front yard issue. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, which I hope we can address through our Land Development Code. And I'm not sure how we would address it, but it seems to have been an aggravating factor for a variety of variances for houses that were constructed quite some time ago. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: You know, I think it's interesting, just as a comment, all three requests that we've heard so far tonight were all things that people don't know when they buy a house. You know, they're--they're in the fine print somewhere in the title or maybe not even in the title. I mean, in the --in the title search to this house, did it say the front yard is on Seminole Road? Probably not. So these are all those kind of buyer-beware kind of things. It's really unfortunate. ®iBn~ M. TropiB, lne., pog,t Offiec Plox 2375, Jeeksonvill~, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, I don't know how the lot got assigned a Seminole Road address if it has a Selva Marina address. I mean, that house has been there 50 years at least, and BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Because it's the shorter of the two -­ THE CHAIRWOMAN: Because that's --at some point our code said we have to define what the front of the lot is. And they said, all right, we'll make it the skinny side. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well --but, no, I mean BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Oh, well, that's a question. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Most address assignments are done at the point of a building permit for new --undeveloped property. It's not assigned when it's platted. It's --the address is assigned when the --at least currently, today. I don't know what it was like when this house was built, but addresses are not assigned until --on undeveloped property, until a building permit is submitted. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Well, here's what I ®ian!l M. Tropia, Inc., Post Office Box 2375, Jacksonvill!l, f6 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 would want to know, then: We know that this street was developed in the 1950s, right? Maybe '60s, but-­ BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Yeah, '60s. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: --probably in the '50s, late '50s. At that time, did the --was it in the City's code that the shorter lot line is the front yard or did that happen after the house was already built? Because it was built and it was assigned an address of Selva Marina Drive. So when did that happen? BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Usually at the point of construction is usually when the address is assigned to a house. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Well, right. I know that, but at what point did the rule come along that said if you have a corner lot, your shorter --your shorter distance is your front yard? Did that happen after this house was built or before? THE CHAIRWOMAN: I would say it would have had to have happened after it because if you knew that building the house, that the narrowest your front of your lot was considered the narrowest side, you would have ®ian!l M. Tropia, lne., Post Office: :Box 2375, Jaeksonvill!l, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 oriented your house entirely different, at least I would have -­ BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Uh-huh. THE CHAIRWOMAN: --because then you would be BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Do you know, Derek? MR. REEVES: No, I don't know. And I -­ because the code was rewritten in '82, it's very hard to research anything prior to that as far as what the regulation was at the time of construction. I wanted to point out a couple of things since we're going down this road. The first is, addresses have nothing to do with the front of the property as far as code definition. That's why you see through-lots on Beach Avenue that have Beach Avenue addresses and some have Ocean Boulevard addresses. It's a choice thing. The City, honestly --once you decide. If you request a change, as long as you have frontage on that street, we'll let you name it or address it that way. The whole reason we have this definition of "corner lot" is really not for fences. It's more for your building setbacks. And I'll CVian;z M. Tropia, Inc., Po~t Office ?>ox 2375, Jac:k~onvill;z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 point out that this structure is a nonconforming structure. That northern end is --it looks like 10.1 feet from the property line. That's technically the rear yard. It should be 20 feet off. Where this really comes into play is those lots in North Atlantic Beach where it's 50 by 130 feet deep. If you say --and say that lot is on the corner of 3rd and East Coast and the shorter side is on 3rd, the longer side is on East Coast, if you want an East Coast address and the front of your home faces East Coast and you apply those front yard setbacks and it's only a 50-foot-wide lot, well, it's a 20-foot setback in the front and 20-foot setback in the rear, you end up with a 10-foot-wide buildable area. That is why we have the narrowest side is the front. It's to determine those setbacks and how that works. Fences have kind of fallen into that as a way to regulate it and, you know, how we determine the location as appropriate. But addressing, design of the house, all of that, as far as where your front door is and <E>icmll M. rropiet, Inc., pog,t Office Box 2375, Jacksonvillll, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 the functionality of your house is completely independent of the setbacks. I just wanted to make you all aware of that, you know, as you have your discussion. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: So you're saying if she tore down her garage on the north end, she couldn't put it --rebuild it, essentially? She --you'd have to take --chop 10 feet off of it because that's considered the rear yard? MR. REEVES: Correct. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Don't tear down your garage. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: You know, we have a highly irregular property and code here, and know it's strange that it's right next door to a property that could not have a 6-foot fence there, but on the other hand, we have a great family house there with crazy limitations due to both shape of the lot and some craziness in the code, and I --I think it's very justifiable to give this variance. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I am --unless somebody can provide evidence otherwise, I am not convinced that the front yard rule about which side is the front yard, I'm not convinced ®ian)Z M. Yropia, lne., Post Offiee Box 2375, Jaeksonvillll, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 that that existed when this house was built, unless somebody can prove it to me that it was. And you said our code was written in --was rewritten in 1989? MR. REEVES: '82. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: '82? MR. REEVES: I know we have a full version from '50, but that doesn't guarantee that I can find your answer. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: So you can't find an answer to say that I'm right, but you also can't find an answer to say that I'm wrong, correct? MR. REEVES: Yeah. I can't find it at this moment, definitely. If you want me to go back and do the research, we can do that and bring it to you next time, if that's what you're looking for. Maybe we find an answer, maybe we don't. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Well, an answer could give me the confidence to vote on this without a doubt, if the applicant is willing to wait. BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: I mean, how do you feel about, you know, the --the tunneling <Eli em~ M. Tropia, Inc., Post Office :Rox 2375, ]aeksonvill~, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 effect -­ BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I don't -­ BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: --that we talk about all the time? BOARD MEMBER LANIER: We do. BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: And that, to me, it's an issue here because it's one of the main thoroughfares in and out of Atlantic Beach. And a 6-foot fence is pretty significantly different than the 4-foot that --they could put the 4-foot without the variance and then they could plant the landscaping, just like the many other houses that we've talked about. And they get all the privacy they want. They get the security still, if they have pets that are running around in the back, they don't want to get oul, and they still have all the privacy with the mature landscaping. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I don't think the tunneling effect on this piece of property is an issue as it is in, like, some of the numbered streets. We really are concerned about the tunneling effect, and I know we've talked about it on Section H. In some of those areas we've talked about it. CVian)Z M. Tropia, lne., Po,Dt Office Rox 2375, Jaek,DonvilllZ, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 This is --this piece of property is so spacious. It lS so big. And if you look at it up there in that picture --I mean, from where it --look at where the house is. I feel like I'm really lobbying for this, and I don't know why, but -­ BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: It's not really the size of the house, but it's the proximity of the fence to the road. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: It's not close. It's not close. There's a huge hedge, which is probably 10 foot tall. The fence would be on the other side of the hedge and wouldn't be as tall as the hedge. So most of this, like this much here (indicating) would be behind a hedge. If we were going to ask the applicant to do something different, we could maybe say, would you not build the fence out quite so far? Maybe keep it more towards the backyard than the front corner of the house? I mean, I think that might be a compromise, but that still doesn't fix the front yard issue. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, just so -­ you've got to --I mean, the thing that strikes me --I mean, I try to sympathize with every CJVian~ M. Yropia, Inc., Post Office :Box 237.5, Jaeksonvill~, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 person that comes forward to try to improve their property, but I --I'm just really concerned about, you know, the precedent it's going to set with other homeowners along Seminole, and -­ BOARD MEMBER LANIER: But the other homeowners, they're not corner lots along Seminole -­ BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, the point -­ BOARD MEMBER LANIER: The neighbor next door THE CHAIRWOMAN: The people right here on the road that leads to the back end to the elementary school, they had to take their 6-foot fence down because they put it up without a permit. And I have to tell you, if anybody needed security and privacy to keep kids from throwing trash and things ln their yard, that would have been someone --and we told them, no, you can have a 4-foot fence with a hedge. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I have BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I don't remember that. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I have a real ®ian}! M. Yropia, Inc., Post Offic(l :Box 2375, Jacksonviii~Z, fb 32203 (904,) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 difference between that and this. The setbacks on Seminole are really wide. How far off the edge of the road is the property line? BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Oh, it's a good-­ MR. REEVES: That's what we don't know for sure. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: It's about 32 feet. I mean, the road itself is about 28 feet wide and it's a 100-foot right-of-way, so do the math. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Yeah. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: I mean, it's-­ BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: So the two --the two are not comparable at all. This is a long way back. It really does not have that tunneling effect because it's so far from Seminole Road. MS. GAGLIONE: May I BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, Sylvia, I agree with you, and I --I get that, but the point is, the fence setback criteria is one-size-fits-all, unfortunately, and that's what we have to work with. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: But we do have -­ ®ian~Z M. Tropia, Inc., pog,t Office :Box 2375, Jackg,onvilk, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 we can grant a variance based on -­ BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: No question. It's just that you open up a whole other kettle of fish. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Well, there are other corner lots, but very few --there's maybe a similar lot at BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Country Club. (Simultaneous speaking.) BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (inaudible) BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Country Club and Seminole is a big corner lot. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: But certainly most of the houses on corner lots along Seminole have --don't have --they have a square lot. They're nothing like this one. This is --this really is a very unusually shaped and irregular shaped lot, Number 5. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, Sylvia, just to comment on your -­ BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Inaudible.) BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, I mean, that's fine, but if you just go up two blocks, up to Country Club and Seminole, that big, vacant -­ not vacant --the big lot with the house with ®ian;z M. rropia, Inc., Post Office Box 2375, Jacksonvill;z, f6 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 I the metal roof that's on the southwest corner, it's the same --that lot is almost identical to this and it's the same configuration. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Well, I'm sorry, can't place that one. I place the one on East Coast -­ (Simultaneous speaking.) BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: (Inaudible) BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: We're on --we're driving north on Seminole. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Yeah. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And you're coming Country Club is the one that cuts over to Selva, where 16th is. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Yeah. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: And it's a big -­ it's a real open lot. It's kind of a long BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I'm sorry, I can't -­ BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: --ranch (inaudible) house with a metal roof -­ BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I'm sorry, can't -­ BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: but the lot is the same thing. I mean, it's a 100-foot 'Dianll M. Tropia, Ine., Post Offiell Box 2375, Jaeksonvillll, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 right-of-way and it's a big lot and it's almost the same shape as this. I wish we had Google Earth up, you could see it. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: It's that house that has like three legs. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Yes, but it's the same thing. So imagine putting a 6-foot fence along their, quote, side yard there. And that's really wide open. You'd see that big as life and then, I mean, they could say, "Well, you did it down the street, why can't I do it here?" It's actually Tad Chance's (phonetic) house. I don't know if you know Tad or not, Tad and Karen Chance. You know, I would love to grant this variance, and there's a lot of me that could be convinced otherwise. I'd have to have the support of staff and, you know, playing some gymnastics with the verbiage a little bit, but I --I'm really concerned about -­ You know, fences are one of the biggest issues we get variances on. And if you let -­ everyone comes in with their issues and their pleas and we all sympathize with that, but the <Vian!Z M. rropia, Inc., pog,t Office Box 2375, Jackg,onvill!Z, fk 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 bottom line is we're here to look at --I mean, we're given this one-size-fits-all fence criteria, and that's what we have to work with right now. And I just feel that if you put this fence right along the Seminole right-of-way, even though it's going to be 30-something feet off the edge of pavement, I just worry about what the other homeowners are saying. "Well, my front yard faces Seminole. I want to be able to do the same thing here." And we're really creating some real issues. Then it starts --let's say four or five people start doing that and you get the canyon effect with the fences, and now look where we are. MS. GAGLIONE: Chairwoman -­ THE CHAIRWOMAN: Ma'am, I'm sorry, the public comment portion is closed and it's just the discussion with the board. MS. GAGLIONE: Oh. So I can't say anything else? THE CHAIRWOMAN: Correct. MS. GAGLIONE: Oh, okay. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. MS. GAGLIONE: Thanks. <E>iane M. Tropia, Inc., Po3t Office Box 2375, Jacksonville, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 THE CHAIRWOMAN: Would it help you guys if we ask the applicant to flag or stake the limits of where the fence is? Because I think that's part of the problem, is we can't quite picture exactly where the fence would be placed. Would that be --would that be more helpful to you? BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Well, maybe that, and also, are there --Kelly, can you see any compromises? Any BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, you know, I would say you could certainly put the 4-foot-high fence in without even having to request for a variance. And if you want to plant a hedge in front or behind it to get your 6 feet, you can do that. You know, 6 feet is maximum. But, you know, trying to find a compromise is just allowing --it's not adhering to the way the law is written, and I don't see a hardship here in the sense that there's something really weird. I mean, it's just it's a corner lot and it's part and parcel of --when you buy a corner lot, you get increased setbacks. ®icm~ M. Tropia, lne., Post Offiee. Box 2375, Jaekg,onvilk, fk 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: When you buy a corner lot, you do not always have an irregular-shaped property. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Well, I wouldn't say that this is particularly irregularly shaped. I mean, as a land planner, I see a lot of lots like this. BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: And it's really not that irregular shape that's causing to bring any of this to issue anyway. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: It's strictly BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Well, I felt it was when I drove by, Patrick, because the --look at the backyard space. It's--you know, it's very small. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: If this house were built today and the --and it was a scraped -­ scraped lot, and someone was told, "Well, your front yard is Seminole Road," I would think they would build a house that faced Seminole Road with the backyard --a spacious backyard that went up Selva --you know, I would. This is --I don't know. BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: So why is the yard size at issue even? I mean, whether we talk t>ianll M. Tropia, In e., Post Offie(Z :Box 2375, Jaeksonvillll, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 about a 4-foot fence or a 6-foot fence, it's not going to change anything about the usable space in the yard. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: No, it's not. I was just saying, if there was no house on this property and you bought the property and somebody said, "Well, this is your front yard," then you would --you would consider that in where you place the house. BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: I agree, but BOARD MEMBER LANIER: But I believe, probably, at the time this was built --and it was Roger Bull (phonetic) that developed all of it, right? I think things were just very different. I mean, look at where the garage is built. It's --you know, it's --it's kind of wedged up in the corner. I don't know if that garage was an add-on. Was it an add-on? I don't think it was an add-on. It looks like it was part of the house, but --anyway, it was put on the property funny. I don't I don't know. BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: Hey, I'm off the board in three months. You guys can be stuck with it, if you --you know. ®icm~ M. Tropia, Inc., Post Officll :Box 2375, Jacksonvill~, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: We need to -­ unless you think putting it off would bring something that would clarify, and I don't think that that would do anything for Kelly's vote or Patrick's vote. We need to either --I'll make a motion and we can vote it up or down. Is that okay? THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, ma'am. Please. BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: I would like to move to grant Variance 17-0010. And I do think it has an irregular shape that makes that backyard very small for a play yard with kids. So that's it. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Do I have a second? BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I'll second. THE CHAIRWOMAN: All in favor? BOARD MEMBER SIMMONS: Aye. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Aye. THE CHAIRWOMAN: All opposed? Nay. BOARD MEMBER ELMORE: Nay. BOARD MEMBER STRATTON: Nay. BOARD MEMBER LANIER: I think that's the first time we've ever had such a close vote. ®ian!Z M. Tropia, In e., Post Office, :Box 2375, Jaeksonvill!Z, f'b 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 THE CHAIRWOMAN: We've only got five tonight, so that -­ BOARD MEMBER LANIER: Oh, right. THE CHAIRWOMAN: So that brings us much closer. All right. That brings us to Item Number 4C, ZVAR17-0009. (The above proceedings were concluded at approximately 7:40p.m.) * * * * * <flian~ M. Yropia, Ine., Post Offie!l Box 2375, Jaeksonvill~, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER STATE OF FLORIDA) ) COUNTY OF DUVAL ) I, Diane M. Tropia, Florida Professional Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did transcribe the foregoing videotaped proceedings to the best of my ability. DATED this lOth day of February 2018. Diane M. Tropia Florida Professional Reporter <Vian\Z M. Tropia, In e., Po2>t Offiec :Rox 2375, Jaek2>onviii\Z, fb 32203 (904) 821-0300